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Old 02-08-2018, 11:50 AM   #51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 3,268

Originally Posted by CBreezy View Post
You don't get that option in a place like ATL or LGA or ORD. You don't get to stay a few hundred feet above assigned altitudes. Like I said, we do it so much in flatland that I can understand a crew misinterpreting a potentially illegal clearance. Doesn't excuse them for not flying the approach but I'm not relieving ATC of any blame. The non-standard clearance is what caused the confusion during an already high workload environment.
Agreed in places like ATL, ORD, LGA where US crew’s are very familiar, low threat terrain. Try that assumption at places like Bishkek (multiple conversions, metric altimeter to inches, QFE to QNH); a night transit of Petropavlovsk (huge terrain and poor English); or Gorno Altsk in Russia (mountains and Russian navigator translating) or Dillion, MT for the first and only time with customer crew new to the plane and you are a “ dead man walking”. I spent most of my career in those places, not ATL, ORD or LGA.

I’m old enough to remember the C-141, taking the clearance meant for another call sign (controller mixed clearance and call signs) and hitting the Cascades and TW 514 at IAD.

Might look at this recent close call, good for EGPWS


Or this hull loss in AK after an erroneous altitude assignment.



Last edited by galaxy flyer; 02-08-2018 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 02-08-2018, 01:27 PM   #52
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Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: Separating and expediting
Posts: 65

Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post

No argument with your ATC experience, I was referencing 4-8-1 Note 1, which says,

"The altitude assigned must assure IFR obstruction clearance from the point at which the approach clearance is issued until established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure."

So, you looks to my pilot’s eye that being in a 7800’ MVA between the SKW flight and CEGAN that might be legal, if exceedingly unwise.

Except note 3 states the aircraft isn't established on the approach until it is "at or above an altitude published on that segment of the approach." Crossing the IAF at or above 7800 here doesn't "assure IFR obstruction clearance" because they could cross it at 7800 and wouldn't be established until well past the high terrain and higher MVA.

It's not a legal clearance.
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Old 02-08-2018, 01:30 PM   #53
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
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Thanks, ATCBob.. I’m not, even on the internet, a .65 expert.

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Old 03-26-2018, 12:40 AM   #54
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Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 202
Default Skywest

Whats your take on this Skywest flight that descended below the minimum segment altitude?

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Old 03-26-2018, 04:05 AM   #55
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Posts: 120

Already been discussed

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