SWA 737 Burbank incident
12-07-2018, 05:17 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,448
Originally Posted by deus ex machina
The confirmation bias is strong ....
You guys desperately a stronger safety structure and committee. There are other carriers that operate the 737 better than you and for longer...
You guys desperately a stronger safety structure and committee. There are other carriers that operate the 737 better than you and for longer...
Thanks, tough guy. When you have something constructive to add to the conversation, let me know.
I am comfortable with our safety programs and processes.
12-07-2018, 05:18 AM
#72
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 312
Originally Posted by e6bpilot
Thanks, tough guy. When you have something constructive to add to the conversation, let me know.
I am comfortable with our safety programs and processes.
I am comfortable with our safety programs and processes.
12-07-2018, 05:22 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: CRJ9 CA
Posts: 4,083
You are correct about the facts. Shortly after the incident wind is reported at above 20kts from the west. Could have been legal and doable at even 15kts but 20 too much. I suspect however that the heavy rain resulted in poor braking action. Time will tell.
Originally Posted by e6bpilot
Have to agree with above. I also don’t see the rushing culture. You only have to sit holding out for a gate so many times before that gets beaten out of you. Most pilots here just want to operate the airplane in SOP, go home, and get paid.
Look, none of us have the facts (yet) so the tough guy “I would never” stuff is ridiculous. You would. You probably have. You probably will again. Most of us have gotten to this point in our lives through a collective set of scary experiences that make outcomes like this much less likely, but every now and then we are all reminded of just how easy it is to get complacent.
I would say the average SWA pilots’ comfort level with operating heavy 737s into short fields is pretty danged comfortable. We do it with full 800s and tanker gas into MDW with much worse conditions.
BUR is generally easy. The weather is 99.5 percent great there. I am betting that there are a variety of factors that led to the overrun, but I am not going to hang anyone in absentia until I know for sure what happened.
Some of the “funny” jokes and comments above are just uncalled for. Put yourself in a similar situation. If you don’t think this very situation could happen to any one of us, you are wrong.
Look, none of us have the facts (yet) so the tough guy “I would never” stuff is ridiculous. You would. You probably have. You probably will again. Most of us have gotten to this point in our lives through a collective set of scary experiences that make outcomes like this much less likely, but every now and then we are all reminded of just how easy it is to get complacent.
I would say the average SWA pilots’ comfort level with operating heavy 737s into short fields is pretty danged comfortable. We do it with full 800s and tanker gas into MDW with much worse conditions.
BUR is generally easy. The weather is 99.5 percent great there. I am betting that there are a variety of factors that led to the overrun, but I am not going to hang anyone in absentia until I know for sure what happened.
Some of the “funny” jokes and comments above are just uncalled for. Put yourself in a similar situation. If you don’t think this very situation could happen to any one of us, you are wrong.
12-07-2018, 05:49 AM
#74
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by deus ex machina
Rhetoric...
SWA has a taxiway/runway overrun problem... hurried culture ingrained...
Tired of you guys asking for direct
Tired of you guys asking for visual approach clearances when your not number one for the runway.
Tired of you guys ignoring ground control instructions to 'get ahead' then playing stupid when called out.
What other US 737 airline regularly leaves the taxiway or runway (or lands at the wrong airport) more than SWA? Hull losses or fatalities? When was the last one?
Oh yeah, SWA.
And now, it's .. hmm let's wait and see on this one... wonder what it could be?
SWA has a taxiway/runway overrun problem... hurried culture ingrained...
Tired of you guys asking for direct
Tired of you guys asking for visual approach clearances when your not number one for the runway.
Tired of you guys ignoring ground control instructions to 'get ahead' then playing stupid when called out.
What other US 737 airline regularly leaves the taxiway or runway (or lands at the wrong airport) more than SWA? Hull losses or fatalities? When was the last one?
Oh yeah, SWA.
And now, it's .. hmm let's wait and see on this one... wonder what it could be?
And since when do you have to be number one to the airport to get a visual? You just sound angry.
12-07-2018, 06:03 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
Tower comms and ATIS info is readily available and matched. Weather report actually showed 11 knot tailwind vs. tower reported 10 (hmmmm...).
Previous landing was 9 minutes prior- rain showed intensifying during that time period.
What we don't know are the mechanical state and their energy state.
I will say that the thought of landing in those conditions in that length of runway even with a well functioning airplane perfectly in the slot gives me the heebie-jeebies.
Previous landing was 9 minutes prior- rain showed intensifying during that time period.
What we don't know are the mechanical state and their energy state.
I will say that the thought of landing in those conditions in that length of runway even with a well functioning airplane perfectly in the slot gives me the heebie-jeebies.
True. Looking at the picture the plane is well into the EMAS. NTSB will be able to calculate the energy remaining when it left the runway area and into the EMAS.
12-07-2018, 06:23 AM
#76
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 312
Originally Posted by BLAHBLAHBLAH
Delta and United have had a few off the TAXIWAY recently. I bet we are not worse than average. And we fly into shorter runways more frequently.
Fixed it for you.
Not like SWA... and not off the end of the runway.... and you don't fly into shorter runways more freq... you are just making excuses for going off the end of the runway. If you can do it some of the time, you can do it all of the time. If you can't, then don't.
Again... you guys have a systemic problem and you convince yourselves there is no problem...
Originally Posted by BLAHBLAHBLAH
And since when do you have to be number one to the airport to get a visual? You just sound angry.
You wait your turn like everyone else and accept the sequence ATC provides. You just sound entitled. You guys aren't as amazing as your management tells you that you are...
12-07-2018, 06:26 AM
#77
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,304
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
If you have valid landing data that shows legal numbers given the length, wet, and tailwind, there are guys who would say they are legal and comfortable for the approach. Without being in their seat that day, at that instant, with their duty day length (fatigue?), I would not presume to make a statement this soon about a bad judgement call.
Of course post-incident sitting in the comfort of your computer chair, "I would have never done that!"
Hindsight always meets 1st class FAA medical eye standards
Of course post-incident sitting in the comfort of your computer chair, "I would have never done that!"
Hindsight always meets 1st class FAA medical eye standards
Originally Posted by WhaleSurfing
So you’re saying that even if the landing data supported it, and we know the ILS Approach criteria was met, that you’d still not attempt the approach? Based on what exactly?
And I’ve flown the plane for many years and into KBUR and with tailwinds and rain....So what?
And I’ve flown the plane for many years and into KBUR and with tailwinds and rain....So what?
Have to say, it wouldn't have happened to me because I wouldn't have gone in there. I've done BUR plenty, and I've gotten a real good look at the far end a couple times even with favorable conditions. Even if they had good numbers, they would have VERY little left at the end, and you just don't know for sure that winds and braking/reverse are going to be book value, nor if YOUR performance is going to be book value. Floating 300' on a good day at BUR is exciting.
And I also wouldn't have accepted a lesser wind call from the tower to make me legal in those conditions. I'm a native and the SOCAL winds are mostly not very gusty, they tend to be steady state (driven by big systems vice local convective crap), so I would take a METAR at face value. An 8-10 kt wind isn't going to just drop off conveniently at the moment of your arrival because the tower told you what you needed to hear (maybe right at sunset for a westerly).
Same for SAN, although more margin there if you're stable on GP (BA regularly operates triples and 74's).
My guess is that the forensics will show they didn't even have good numbers unless they were really light. Feel free to flame me if I'm wrong.
12-07-2018, 06:51 AM
#78
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 492
Its not the pilots fault.. It has to be something else. It was the weather, ATC, the runway length, or some unknown mechanical reason. I am not sure which but SWA pilots never suffer from poor Aeronautical Decision Making. That just cant be the reason.
12-07-2018, 06:52 AM
#79
Strike averted!
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: B737
Posts: 3,652
Originally Posted by deus ex machina
Rhetoric...
SWA has a taxiway/runway overrun problem... hurried culture ingrained...
Tired of you guys asking for direct
Tired of you guys asking for visual approach clearances when your not number one for the runway.
Tired of you guys ignoring ground control instructions to 'get ahead' then playing stupid when called out.
What other US 737 airline regularly leaves the taxiway or runway (or lands at the wrong airport) more than SWA? Hull losses or fatalities? When was the last one?
Oh yeah, SWA.
And now, it's .. hmm let's wait and see on this one... wonder what it could be?
SWA has a taxiway/runway overrun problem... hurried culture ingrained...
Tired of you guys asking for direct
Tired of you guys asking for visual approach clearances when your not number one for the runway.
Tired of you guys ignoring ground control instructions to 'get ahead' then playing stupid when called out.
What other US 737 airline regularly leaves the taxiway or runway (or lands at the wrong airport) more than SWA? Hull losses or fatalities? When was the last one?
Oh yeah, SWA.
And now, it's .. hmm let's wait and see on this one... wonder what it could be?
Is this one a hull loss? We don’t know yet.
AA381 was.
I’m not defending poor decision making. I just want to wait for the data.
Asking for a shortcut is wrong?
We “regularly” depart the taxiway/runway?
Ok boss.
I appreciate debate on judgement, weather, decision making.
You’ve already assembled a posse and built the gallows.
12-07-2018, 06:59 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,448
Originally Posted by deus ex machina
Fixed it for you.
Not like SWA... and not off the end of the runway.... and you don't fly into shorter runways more freq... you are just making excuses for going off the end of the runway. If you can do it some of the time, you can do it all of the time. If you can't, then don't.
Again... you guys have a systemic problem and you convince yourselves there is no problem...
You wait your turn like everyone else and accept the sequence ATC provides. You just sound entitled. You guys aren't as amazing as your management tells you that you are...
Not like SWA... and not off the end of the runway.... and you don't fly into shorter runways more freq... you are just making excuses for going off the end of the runway. If you can do it some of the time, you can do it all of the time. If you can't, then don't.
Again... you guys have a systemic problem and you convince yourselves there is no problem...
You wait your turn like everyone else and accept the sequence ATC provides. You just sound entitled. You guys aren't as amazing as your management tells you that you are...
You having a bad week, brah?
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