With rest of world having 737 Max grounded (Canada just did it), FAA is only one left claiming it is safe.

Isn't it sometimes easier to move on and admit mis-steps? Even having some FAA heads fly Max daily won't convince public any more.

In the end, safety trumps everything, at least, that is where the rest of world sees, including our close allies.

I bet my dollar that FAA will move on by end of this week and ground Max.

Maybe. It's frankly also realistic to assume that US pilots can handle this sort of thing better. Maybe not all regional crews, but anyone flying a MAX in the US should have the experience and skill.

Right now there are 737 Max 8s flying over five different continents. It is hardly grounded in the "rest of the world". Even the two accident airlines are continuing to fly it.

https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M

does that include Atlas Crews?

FAA about to give in and ground the max 8 and 9

What does an accident involving a 27 year old converted 767 freighter that doesn’t use MCAS have to do with this discussion?

Max is grounded
 

I tend to think so, but we should know soon enough. They don't fly the MAX.

All current US MAX operators are "upper tier" major airlines which pay very well, ergo they can be very selective as to who they hire. Almost all of their pilots will have both lots of experience and above average resumes. I can't imagine any US pilot today who would not reach down and throw those two switches at the first hint of pitch/trim trouble... in fact the last time I sat jumpseat, the CA pointed them out to me, but I had already located them myself.

And for eurodude who deleted his post just now, I'm not saying "fuuriners" suck. Just that there's a wider variety of experience and quality globally, and as I've said before the Lionair guys had no idea MCAS existed... I can see how it could happen to them.

President Trump has grounded the MAX 8 and 9.

Presumably everyone else will follow since the US is the certification authority.

While MCAS gets implicated potentially in ONE accident we don't know if that's the case in this other one. While I think MCAS might be a contributor the REAL cause maybe faultly AOA. Remember when that happens you get all sorts of warnings to deal with - and MCAS is a complication. That said there MAY be another, very different issue with the AP system in the Max. Check this link out:

https://apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27

Problems with pitch down when the AP is engaged.

It is not utterly impossible that a software glitch could slip through the cracks during testing and certification. The complexity is so vast that no single human being can be familiar any more than a small subset of the millions of lines of code required.

Outsourced labor strikes again.

I am no expert here, but it has been reported software issues delayed F35 program big time, if it can do to F35, it certainly can do to Max, in this increasingly software driven world.

It wasn't the airplane software driving that, it was the weapons/sensor software... whole nother ballgame. Airliners are simple by comparison.

On the contrary, for once I agree with Trump. Every other country in the world except the US decided to act with an abundance of caution, and until more information is known, I'd say that's an appropriate way to respond.

Does boeing outsource software?

Darn. And I was enjoying all the "man on the street" interviews with air travelers.

Reporter: Are you afraid to fly on the 737 Max?
Local Bafoon: I'm terrified! There's so many people people saying they aren't safe! *wide-eyed terror*
Reporter: Do you think the FAA should ground the planes until they figure out the problem and a solution?
Bafoon: Yes definitely! The airlines are putting people's lives at risk for what? Profit? It's just money! It isn't worth the cost! Its people's lives! *stern indignation*
Reporter: Did you consider changing your flight or postponing your trip until the issues are resolved?
Bafoon: Yes but they wanted $75 to change my flight soooo... I guess I'm just going to risk it and hope for the best? *nervous laugh and a shrug*

Aaaand repeat ad infinitum. The traveling public :rolleyes:

The whole inexperienced crew argument thing doesn’t hold much weight with me, all it does is ignore the problem. Would some more experience crews have reached a different outcome? Sure but these airlines have been flying different models of the 737 for years without issues like this. Two of these brand new planes falling out of the sky in 5 months isn’t normal. Whether it’s MCAS or AOA faults or whatever it’s not a good start and I really don’t think a plane going full nose down trim and auguring into the ground as soon as they’re airborne is a crew experience issue.


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It comes out of India, from Boeing India Private Limited, they're hiring AP developers by the way, $80K.

I know a guy who just retired as a code writer for Boeing. He started on pax and went to fighters. He worked for BA in Washington state.

The defense stuff is all still in house for security reasons, but I'm sure they put an in house team on this MCAS issue.

Hahaha. This was hilarious. :D

Yeah, I'm glad how literal you took "burnt cables" because that's what a normal person, whose totally not trying to deflect at all, would do. Do you work for Boeing, by the way? Or perhaps, an aviation software company?

Anyway, a few other lines from people on the previous flight of the 737-8 MAX that eventually crashed off of Indonesia:

"Two passengers on board said they had been concerned about problems with the air-conditioning system and cabin lighting before the plane departed almost three hours late."
https://news.sky.com/story/lion-air-...crash-11539864

"Another passenger, Alon Soetanto, told TVOne the plane dropped suddenly several times in the first few minutes of its flight.

'About three to eight minutes after it took off, I felt like the plane was losing power and unable to rise. That happened several times during the flight,' he said. 'We felt like in a roller coaster. Some passengers began to panic and vomit.' "
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rs/1816401002/

And from the 2016 FAA query (or an article about the query) about Boeing's use of a large lithium battery in the 737-8:
(and here's the link again:https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...ithium-battery)
"Novel or Unusual Design Features
The Boeing Model 737-8 airplane will incorporate non-rechargeable lithium batteries.

A battery system consists of the battery and any protective, monitoring, and alerting circuitry or hardware inside or outside of the battery. It also includes vents (where necessary) and packaging. For the purpose of these special conditions, a “battery” and “battery system” are referred to as a battery."

And about Boeing's response in 2016:
"Boeing commented that they fully support AIA's comments.
Boeing requested that the FAA provide adequate time before non-rechargeable lithium battery special conditions become effective to support validation activities by foreign civil airworthiness authorities (FCAA) and to not adversely impact future airplane deliveries by all applicants. The FAA considered this same comment from Boeing for special conditions no. 25-612-SC and provided a detailed response in that document. We determined the effective date for these Boeing 737-8 special conditions based on Boeing's comment and other factors stated in special conditions no. 25-612-SC."

I don't think he really had a choice.

The FAA has too much pressure to promote aviation for dollars and cents. The FAA is still an organization that is very close to the aviation lobby. They are easily influenced by manufacturers and vendors.

The prudent and cautious thing to do is to encourage Boeing to figure it out. The grounding should give Boeing a good opportunity to figure it out. The FAA did certify this thing. Their noses are bloodied too. They have some blame on their plate as well.

The news is saying the decision is based on data analyzed today.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/03/13/politics/donald-trump-boeing-faa/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Very doubtful something really meaningful came to light today that would suggest today vs yesterday (or Monday, when the Chinese first grounded the jet) we are any closer to knowing exactly why both these aircraft crashed.

The FAA, Boeing and any and all airlines still flying the MAX are putting themselves way out if, God forbid, another accident were to happen. The first crash got everyones attention to a possible problem with a new (redesigned) aircraft and (to layman) information about systems they know nothing about. The second crash could be totally coincidental, but even non aviation media can see a trend that suggests a problem unsolved.

A lot of bellyaching from the peanut gallery about the non aviation press reporting and speculating on the MAX crashes. I'd be curious what some of these professionals aviators would think or do if a new car they recently purchased started have multiple (similar) problems that put at risk their families and themselves when they drove it?

Boeing has a problem on their hands, I don't believe anyone there wants the bad press, or an unsafe aircraft with their name attached. In good time these accidents will be solved. Let's hope the answers come quick, correct and improves the safety for all, user and rider alike.

I heard that it wasn't information they got, but rather info they didn't get. Specifically no evidence of terrorism. I think they may have been holding out due to eyewitness reports of flames or explosions and rumors of terrorism. Eyewitness accounts are of course worth a warm bucket of pee.

Absent some imagery or physical evidence to the contrary, Ocam's Razor applies.

I want to ask a candid question here, what exactly is the new info that made Canadian and FAA reverse their decision?

We have NASA and best military bases in the world and I would guess the satallite tracking info of any flight is at finger tips if FAA wants it for analysis. It takes 3 days to come to a conclusion? Thanks.

Fox News probably made something up.

Can’t answer your first question.
I’m also fairly certain NASA, a military base (even the “best” one ;)) or some random satellite aren’t any better than the manufacturer, engineers that designed the jet, the NTSB, CVR and FDR.
Maybe some additional information has come to light that’s not public yet or maybe it’s just a knee jerk reaction to the ridiculous amount of media coverage and speculation.

You must not know many “fighter pilots”

How is anybody not involved in the investigation able to answer that?

There's some insinuation that the commonality in these three mishaps is a crew that tried to resolve the problem to impact through automation, never resorting to hand flying. This may be significant, if indeed the problem is one of automation. It's possible that the mode of failure may not be so much the problem as the mode of addressing it.

what does "the Mode" of addressing it, mean?

The FAA doesn't have routine access to that sort of thing. That's DoD (and other agencies) and it's all classified.

If they needed it urgently, there would be a bureaucratic process to get it, would take at least a week. Maybe only a few days if the white house got involved.

Complete nonsense, given that MCAS does not operate with autopilot on.

It means that the cure may be worse than the disease, if one attempts to fly the airplane via automation, all the way to impact.

Don't shoot me but...
 

... MCAS is overridden if manual trim is used, assuming pilots knows, can be MCAS the only suspect here?

"In one incident, an airline pilot reported that immediately after engaging the Max 8’s autopilot, the co-pilot shouted “DESCENDING,” followed by an audio cockpit warning, “DON’T SINK! DON’T SINK!”"

I thought the system would not work with the flaps down but was otherwise on all the time and just need the (perceived) right conditions to activate.