Faa finds another major [737] problem
#11
So much excitement to throw wood on the fire, did anyone actually read the article and note that it's full of errors and bad information, and old information, inaccurate descriptions and straw man references? No?
Too busy posting a link and living off the title, rather than bothering to read the article?
Too busy posting a link and living off the title, rather than bothering to read the article?
#12
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Lots of (government sponsored) new technology on the horizon to dramatically reduce fuel burn/carbon/emissions. It will take a LOT of R&D money to implement (likely drastic changes to aircraft configuration), so both Boeing and Airbus decided not to drop tens of billions in a clean-sheet narrowbody which might be obsolete in ten years. Normally they would have, and just saved the new tech for the NEXT generation a few decades down the line but regulatory and/or political pressure is very likely to force the implementation of said technology as soon as it's ready (2030, maybe sooner?).
#13
Dunno. Lot's of good ideas, but the devil is in the details as far as practicality and economics... that's what they have to refine. Also some things work great to accomplish one goal, but that compromises another objective (ex open rotors, efficiency vs. noise). There's a chinese menu of new tech, some of which is mutually exclusive.
I would expect to see some enhanced laminar flow, possibly engine ingested, higher-aspect wings (braced, or active load mitigated).
Hybrid power systems will likely play a role. Airliners (much larger than a 1900) will not be battery powered, but a hybrid system which provides a battery to boost T/O, Climb and OEI performance would allow the engines to be optimized for cruise flight... ie smaller. Significant potential fuel savings there. The technical challenge is building a hybrid system where the extra weight of the components doesn't nullify the benefit. Obvious way ahead there is a higher voltage... much higher. Obvious technical challenges to that last...
Could also just use a (big) APU to provide the electrical boost for high-thrust phases of flight.
Turbine engines themselves will not see any revolutionary improvements... we've already grabbed the low hanging fruit there, other than possibly even bigger/open rotors. You can integrate hybrid motor/generators into the turbine core to implement hybrid power but that will not fundamentally change core efficiency, other than allowing it to be smaller. Cores will get incrementally more efficient, but there's only so much room left there.
Also new tech will have to be considered in light of ground operations. A flying wing, or hybrid wing/body, will not fit on current gates for example. Easier to fold the tip extension of a high-aspect ratio wing (a la 777X).
I would expect to see some enhanced laminar flow, possibly engine ingested, higher-aspect wings (braced, or active load mitigated).
Hybrid power systems will likely play a role. Airliners (much larger than a 1900) will not be battery powered, but a hybrid system which provides a battery to boost T/O, Climb and OEI performance would allow the engines to be optimized for cruise flight... ie smaller. Significant potential fuel savings there. The technical challenge is building a hybrid system where the extra weight of the components doesn't nullify the benefit. Obvious way ahead there is a higher voltage... much higher. Obvious technical challenges to that last...
Could also just use a (big) APU to provide the electrical boost for high-thrust phases of flight.
Turbine engines themselves will not see any revolutionary improvements... we've already grabbed the low hanging fruit there, other than possibly even bigger/open rotors. You can integrate hybrid motor/generators into the turbine core to implement hybrid power but that will not fundamentally change core efficiency, other than allowing it to be smaller. Cores will get incrementally more efficient, but there's only so much room left there.
Also new tech will have to be considered in light of ground operations. A flying wing, or hybrid wing/body, will not fit on current gates for example. Easier to fold the tip extension of a high-aspect ratio wing (a la 777X).
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Current aircraft burn off fuel source leading to an improving effiency curve along stage length.
Its gona be a hard economic sell to haul not only the hybrid hardware but also the static dead weight of the battery across an entire flight when its only value is in boost phase.
Ditto for integrated electric drive motors. If their power source is generated by onboard by 'large apu' loss of the source likely jeopardizes the aircraft. And you have to haul that heavy electric powerplant on every flight.
Jato would be far more feasable and economical. Likewise for a inflight refuling profile. Both well proven existing technology.
a reusable launch sled to altitude that detaches and returns would be an easier design than integrated hybrid drives.
The next leap may well be aerodynamic. With a tailess spanloader design.
Its gona be a hard economic sell to haul not only the hybrid hardware but also the static dead weight of the battery across an entire flight when its only value is in boost phase.
Ditto for integrated electric drive motors. If their power source is generated by onboard by 'large apu' loss of the source likely jeopardizes the aircraft. And you have to haul that heavy electric powerplant on every flight.
Jato would be far more feasable and economical. Likewise for a inflight refuling profile. Both well proven existing technology.
a reusable launch sled to altitude that detaches and returns would be an easier design than integrated hybrid drives.
The next leap may well be aerodynamic. With a tailess spanloader design.
Last edited by BobZ; 06-27-2019 at 02:52 PM.
#15
Inflight refueling works in theory but I'd be surprised if the regulators ever allow formation flight of airliners.
With any electric drive scheme you'd need redundancy... any combination of turbine engine, APU, battery. Two of something.
You could have two cruise optimized turbine main engines, with integrated electric motors on the fan spool. Augment power provided by the APU. Any one could fail. Remember, current engines are sized for OEI... the plane has to climb at MGTOW on one motor. That makes the motors too big for optimal cruise economy.
With any electric drive scheme you'd need redundancy... any combination of turbine engine, APU, battery. Two of something.
You could have two cruise optimized turbine main engines, with integrated electric motors on the fan spool. Augment power provided by the APU. Any one could fail. Remember, current engines are sized for OEI... the plane has to climb at MGTOW on one motor. That makes the motors too big for optimal cruise economy.
Last edited by rickair7777; 06-27-2019 at 05:17 PM.
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,886
Fix MCAS. Re-certify in a proper manner with oversight and adult supervision
#18
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,925
Defunded during the current administration. The cheetoh in chief thought it was a good idea shut down the the government for the longest period in recorded history.
But that's largely irrelevant, given that certification was met.
But that's largely irrelevant, given that certification was met.
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: JAFO- First Observer
Posts: 997
Oversight of Aircraft Certification farmed out to the ODA. ODA’s coming soon to the pilot certification realm. The days are numbered for APM’s and POI’s having direct oversight of Designees. Sad...
#20
The 737 MAX series gained FAA certification on March 8, 2017. Given how long the process takes, it was mostly a done deal by the time the current administration took office six weeks earlier. Not sure you can legitimately hold the current admin culpable.
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