Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Safety (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/)
-   -   KMGM accident 12/31 (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/141019-kmgm-accident-12-31-a.html)

ENH017 01-01-2023 05:00 AM


Originally Posted by I was inverted (Post 3563194)
Is keeping the #2 engine running while waiting for ground power normal?

The book only mentions the procedure for starting at the gate with APU inop. It does not mention how the shutdown procedure would go in that specific situation.

There's only 2 points that I could find that are relevant:
  1. Single engine taxi with APU inop is prohibited
  2. 2 minute cool down is required before engine shutdown
I would not call pulling into the gate with both engines running while waiting for GPU and/or cool down "normal", due to common sense hopefully, but the book does not specifically forbid us from doing so.

PhilMcCrackin 01-01-2023 05:18 AM


Originally Posted by ENH017 (Post 3563232)
The book only mentions the procedure for starting at the gate with APU inop. It does not mention how the shutdown procedure would go in that specific situation.

There's only 2 points that I could find that are relevant:
  1. Single engine taxi with APU inop is prohibited
  2. 2 minute cool down is required before engine shutdown
I would not call pulling into the gate with both engines running while waiting for GPU and/or cool down "normal", due to common sense hopefully, but the book does not specifically forbid us from doing so.


Short taxi? Also, aren’t ground crew trained not to approach the aircraft with the beacon on when pulling into the gate? I think you’re reaching for ideas to blame the flight crew.

AerChungus 01-01-2023 06:22 AM


Originally Posted by PhilMcCrackin (Post 3563241)
Short taxi? Also, aren’t ground crew trained not to approach the aircraft with the beacon on when pulling into the gate? I think you’re reaching for ideas to blame the flight crew.

I'm former ramp for the other WO AA carrier. That might be on some LMS slide in training, but in practice as soon as the plane comes to a complete stop everybody tries to chock the tires and start unloading. We would have had no real way of knowing whether the APU was deferred or not. In my experience, it's usually not particularly hard to notice if an engine is still running but when I started I made the mistake of walking around the back of a 175 when an engine was idling (whether the APU was deferred or not, I'll never know) and got blown across the ramp

flightbag 01-01-2023 07:09 AM


Originally Posted by FlyyGuyy (Post 3563226)
Perhaps still waiting for cool down? I agree though, even on the bus we shut 2 down first typically.

About a month ago we pulled in, and before the captain could shut it down, the rampers were already opening the doors. .... At DFW. Both cargo doors open with number 2 still going.

There is pressure to go, go, go on everyone's part. Sometimes we all just go too fast. I know it's hard, but sometimes we just need to take a deep breath before we act. This guy paid the ultimate price. Too bad.

pangolin 01-01-2023 07:41 AM


Originally Posted by ENH017 (Post 3563232)
The book only mentions the procedure for starting at the gate with APU inop. It does not mention how the shutdown procedure would go in that specific situation.

There's only 2 points that I could find that are relevant:
  1. Single engine taxi with APU inop is prohibited
  2. 2 minute cool down is required before engine shutdown
I would not call pulling into the gate with both engines running while waiting for GPU and/or cool down "normal", due to common sense hopefully, but the book does not specifically forbid us from doing so.

Single engine tacit with apu inop being prohibited would result in arriving at the gate with both running.

rickair7777 01-01-2023 08:22 AM


Originally Posted by PhilMcCrackin (Post 3563241)
Short taxi? Also, aren’t ground crew trained not to approach the aircraft with the beacon on when pulling into the gate? I think you’re reaching for ideas to blame the flight crew.

Yes, if the beacon was on (I'm assuming it was) then this is a colossal failure of fundamental safety on the part of the ramp. Remotely possible that the lower beacon failed or the CA reverted to muscle memory and turned the beacon off. We'll know soon enough.

There are things we can do to minimize risk, good practice to slow-roll a short taxi-in to avoid having to finish cooling down while parked at the gate. Worst case stop short of the parked position and then pull in after cooldown.

With APU inop, you just have to keep one of them running though so that's where the adherence to procedure becomes absolutely vital... it's not an uncommon occurrence. Might be worth advising ops which engine will remain up, but they still should just stay the eff away except for the guy who has to plug in the power and maybe nose chocks.

I vaguely recall shutting down #1 on a past airplane because the GP receptacle was on the left side. Might have been a prop job.

mketch11 01-01-2023 08:24 AM


Originally Posted by AerChungus (Post 3563260)
I'm former ramp for the other WO AA carrier. That might be on some LMS slide in training, but in practice as soon as the plane comes to a complete stop everybody tries to chock the tires and start unloading. We would have had no real way of knowing whether the APU was deferred or not. In my experience, it's usually not particularly hard to notice if an engine is still running but when I started I made the mistake of walking around the back of a 175 when an engine was idling (whether the APU was deferred or not, I'll never know) and got blown across the ramp

Flashing red beacon would be on any time an engine is running. That’s how you would know not to approach.

AerChungus 01-01-2023 08:28 AM


Originally Posted by mketch11 (Post 3563347)
Flashing red beacon would be on any time an engine is running. That’s how you would know not to approach.

Right, as a pilot, that may be intuitive. As a ramper with 5 days of training you don't/barely know what a beacon light is, much less what it represents. The standing practice in a lot of places is you listen for the sound of the engine being cut

rickair7777 01-01-2023 08:30 AM


Originally Posted by AerChungus (Post 3563260)
I'm former ramp for the other WO AA carrier. That might be on some LMS slide in training, but in practice as soon as the plane comes to a complete stop everybody tries to chock the tires and start unloading. We would have had no real way of knowing whether the APU was deferred or not. In my experience, it's usually not particularly hard to notice if an engine is still running but when I started I made the mistake of walking around the back of a 175 when an engine was idling (whether the APU was deferred or not, I'll never know) and got blown across the ramp

That's what the beacon is for.

drywhitetoast 01-01-2023 08:32 AM


Originally Posted by AerChungus (Post 3563349)
The standing practice in a lot of places is you listen for the sound of the engine being cut

Unless he was wearing his airpods.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:14 AM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands