Reinventing the snowboard
#11
I've had students try it on me multiple times. I once had a guy who came to me because he had landed gear up in his personal airplane and felt that he needed some retraining. Off we went in a C-310 to retrain. Air work then back to the pattern for touch and goes. The first one is fine, the second one is fine, the third one just at the time he has been putting the gear down I add in a little distraction by mentioning some land mark or some such nonsense. No gear, he goes to full flaps on final gear horn starts to blare. Still no gear, I ask him if he's done his before landing check? "Yep been done." I ask him what he plans to land on. He looks at me kind of funny and says the RUNWAY! 100' no gear,I call a go around all this time the gear warning horn is blaring so loud that I had to yell at him to make myself understood.
He goes around tries to pull the gear and accuses me of having "tricked" him somehow because the gear is already up for some reason!!
I don't know what it is but that horn just doesn't register with some folks. I think it has to do with stress, as has been mentioned above, causing auditory exclusion. As an instructor I've seen it to many times and know that not only can it happen but that it does way to often.
He goes around tries to pull the gear and accuses me of having "tricked" him somehow because the gear is already up for some reason!!
I don't know what it is but that horn just doesn't register with some folks. I think it has to do with stress, as has been mentioned above, causing auditory exclusion. As an instructor I've seen it to many times and know that not only can it happen but that it does way to often.
Last edited by Airhoss; 02-22-2012 at 07:49 AM.
#12
Saying checklist items and not doing them is an established pitfall. You can easily develop a false sense of confidence not based on reality.
Some elements of the solution are
• Rigid adherence to checklist discipline in training, with instructors who employ distractions (Hoss).
• If approved checklists are not provided (Part 91) then pay particular attention to writing quality self-generated checklists.
• Redundent checkpoints. For example, half mile check for gear down.
Although I love to make stuff up (carefully) I'm very big on checklist discipline with students. If they cannot follow a simple Skyhawk checklist when they are primary students, they cannot be pilots in my view. When I am about ready to sign someone off for a checkride, I take them to a very short field and see what happens. Sure enough just last week, I had a student drop 20 flaps on downwind, which normally flaps go to 10 at key position, 20 on base leg. No reason not to follow the normal flow here, and I took the controls immediately. This student had obviously thrown the whole procedural flow out the window in a rush to cram in a short approach, and had resorted to checklist abandonment. Huge recipe for problems. Tossing the procedural flow a serious defect as far as I am concerned, and this student was almost ready for a checkride. Instead they bumped back multiple flights until I can see a dependable checklist discipline. The only exception is if they say "I am skipping this because of this" and have a clear idea why.
Some elements of the solution are
• Rigid adherence to checklist discipline in training, with instructors who employ distractions (Hoss).
• If approved checklists are not provided (Part 91) then pay particular attention to writing quality self-generated checklists.
• Redundent checkpoints. For example, half mile check for gear down.
Although I love to make stuff up (carefully) I'm very big on checklist discipline with students. If they cannot follow a simple Skyhawk checklist when they are primary students, they cannot be pilots in my view. When I am about ready to sign someone off for a checkride, I take them to a very short field and see what happens. Sure enough just last week, I had a student drop 20 flaps on downwind, which normally flaps go to 10 at key position, 20 on base leg. No reason not to follow the normal flow here, and I took the controls immediately. This student had obviously thrown the whole procedural flow out the window in a rush to cram in a short approach, and had resorted to checklist abandonment. Huge recipe for problems. Tossing the procedural flow a serious defect as far as I am concerned, and this student was almost ready for a checkride. Instead they bumped back multiple flights until I can see a dependable checklist discipline. The only exception is if they say "I am skipping this because of this" and have a clear idea why.
Last edited by Cubdriver; 02-22-2012 at 07:50 AM.
#13
Saying checklist items and not doing them is an established pitfall. You can easily develop a false sense of confidence not based on reality.
Some elements of the solution are
• Rigid adherence to checklist discipline in training, with instructors who employ distractions (Hoss).
• If approved checklists are not provided (Part 91) then pay particular attention to writing quality self-generated checklists.
• Redundent checkpoints. For example, half mile check for gear down.
Although I love to make stuff up (carefully) I'm very big on checklist discipline with students. If they cannot follow a simple Skyhawk checklist when they are primary students, they cannot be pilots in my view. When I am about ready to sign someone off for a checkride, I take them to a very short field and see what happens. Sure enough just last week, I had a student drop 20 flaps on downwind, which normally flaps go to 10 at key position, 20 on base leg. No reason not to follow the normal flow here, and I took the controls immediately. This student had obviously thrown the whole procedural flow out the window in a rush to cram in a short approach, and had resorted to checklist abandonment. Huge recipe for problems. Tossing the procedural flow a serious defect as far as I am concerned, and this student was almost ready for a checkride. Instead they bumped back multiple flights until I can see a dependable checklist discipline. The only exception is if they say "I am skipping this because of this" and have a clear idea why.
Some elements of the solution are
• Rigid adherence to checklist discipline in training, with instructors who employ distractions (Hoss).
• If approved checklists are not provided (Part 91) then pay particular attention to writing quality self-generated checklists.
• Redundent checkpoints. For example, half mile check for gear down.
Although I love to make stuff up (carefully) I'm very big on checklist discipline with students. If they cannot follow a simple Skyhawk checklist when they are primary students, they cannot be pilots in my view. When I am about ready to sign someone off for a checkride, I take them to a very short field and see what happens. Sure enough just last week, I had a student drop 20 flaps on downwind, which normally flaps go to 10 at key position, 20 on base leg. No reason not to follow the normal flow here, and I took the controls immediately. This student had obviously thrown the whole procedural flow out the window in a rush to cram in a short approach, and had resorted to checklist abandonment. Huge recipe for problems. Tossing the procedural flow a serious defect as far as I am concerned, and this student was almost ready for a checkride. Instead they bumped back multiple flights until I can see a dependable checklist discipline. The only exception is if they say "I am skipping this because of this" and have a clear idea why.
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,049
Likes: 0
From: I pilot
That's a big negative. I don't know about France and French speaking aviation, but in the UK we use BUMMMFITCH on downwind, followed by reds blues greens on final
BUMMMFITCHH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, most places that I have been in Europe are big on putting the checklist away on downwind and using scan flows and memory items for downwind and final, even if light airplanes.
The Brits kind of mess up the scan flow with the ridiculous BUMMMFITCHH nmemonic. They like to do things based on importance of an item and not ease of flow.
BUMMMFITCHH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, most places that I have been in Europe are big on putting the checklist away on downwind and using scan flows and memory items for downwind and final, even if light airplanes.
The Brits kind of mess up the scan flow with the ridiculous BUMMMFITCHH nmemonic. They like to do things based on importance of an item and not ease of flow.
Last edited by zondaracer; 02-22-2012 at 02:20 PM.
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
From: 319/320/321...whatever it takes.
I know I've said it before, but that will buff right out. He'll be flying again in no time.
In all seriousness, at first I thought it was a known faulty gear situation, who could miss that horn? I know you are right Cub, but they didn't seem to be on a high stress flight. This is a good training video and a good way to include the non flying passenger in the back. In the preflight brief, he could have included a " if you hear (or see) anything that doesn't seem right speak up" as part of the brief.
In all seriousness, at first I thought it was a known faulty gear situation, who could miss that horn? I know you are right Cub, but they didn't seem to be on a high stress flight. This is a good training video and a good way to include the non flying passenger in the back. In the preflight brief, he could have included a " if you hear (or see) anything that doesn't seem right speak up" as part of the brief.
#16
Banned
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 0
"Make up your mind dude, is he gonna !@#$, or is he gonna kill us?"
"First he's gonna !@#$, THEN he's gonna kill us!"
#17
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 222
Likes: 1
That's a big negative. I don't know about France and French speaking aviation, but in the UK we use BUMMMFITCH on downwind, followed by reds blues greens on final
BUMMMFITCHH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, most places that I have been in Europe are big on putting the checklist away on downwind and using scan flows and memory items for downwind and final, even if light airplanes.
The Brits kind of mess up the scan flow with the ridiculous BUMMMFITCHH nmemonic. They like to do things based on importance of an item and not ease of flow.
BUMMMFITCHH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, most places that I have been in Europe are big on putting the checklist away on downwind and using scan flows and memory items for downwind and final, even if light airplanes.
The Brits kind of mess up the scan flow with the ridiculous BUMMMFITCHH nmemonic. They like to do things based on importance of an item and not ease of flow.
What is wrong with GUMP? bummfi.whatever...way to long
#20


