Originally Posted by RI830 (Post 1671320)

Not sure is this has been posted or not.

Originally Posted by atpcliff (Post 1671144)

The autothrottles were on the whole time. I was taught in groundschool that the autothrottles would protect your speed. That is what or checkairmen thought. That is what the FAA test pilot thought.I assume that is what the Asiana pilots thought. But, Boeing didn't build the software that way, and they didn't think it was important to tell anyone else...so almost everyone who flew a Boeing product assumed that if the autothrottles were on, you were speed protected.

Originally Posted by aviatorhi (Post 1671730)

Simple fact is that on these fancy "whiz bang" airplanes it's best to stick to fully automatic or fully manual flight. The video above shows the events were even more appalling than what I had suspected had happened.

Originally Posted by aviatorhi (Post 1671757)

In case "manual" sounds confusing... Either use the automatics fully (AP & AT) or don't use them at all (no hand flying with the AT on), there is no reason to other than laziness.

Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 1671881)

Totally agree with this. Mixed mode flying can create its share of problems - most notably an eventual reliance on the auto-throttle. The other biggie is the simple fact that it actually takes us longer to figure out the automation isn't doing what we want and take over than if we never expected anything from it in the first place (because we're flying manually).

I think it's very funny when some Captain's look uncomfortable when you brief A/T off (even though that's supposed to be the norm now, with us). So, somehow I’ve gotten to this point in my career unable to maintain simple airspeed? Then they've got their hand behind the throttles "guarding" them on approach. Like the extra millisecond it will take to reach the throttles (if necessary) with their hand in their lap is going to make some difference. :rolleyes:

Fdxlag - there's a time for automation, certainly. However, since many of us get a handful of landings each month (if that), IMO, we should take every opportunity to hone our skills. Yeah, even flight director off. Was F/D off easy for you in the sim when we did it last year? It was for me because I’d just done it the real aircraft a few weeks before. There are a few valid reasons to fly A/P off but still keep A/T on - however, those circumstances are rare. If you're so tired you can't even monitor your airspeed effectively, then put everything on and do an autoland. This "I'm tired, so I'll leave the auto-throttles on" excuse is a cop-out, IMO.


They did recognize they were slow and so did the aircraft. Prior to the aircraft speed warning CAM-1 picks up someone saying “It’s low”. Then there’s an audible alert. Why they got slow in the first place is the reason they crashed and the big problem - failing to notice is just a symptom.

WELL PRIOR to the audible warning, the pilot selected an idle descent via FL-CH and pulls the throttles to idle to correct being high on G/S. After returning to G/S (according to the narrator, at ~2:50 in the video) the pilot “pulled back on the column in an effort to maintain the glidepath”. After that he continues to increase pitch with no power input. No pilot with even basic skills in a jet aircraft attempt to maintain the proper glidepath in an on-speed aircraft by increasing pitch without also increasing the power setting. IMO, that basic pitch/power skills set has eroded to the point that this guy was essentially flying with one hand. He expected the airspeed part of his job to be handled by the A/T – period – dot. It obviously wasn’t even in his cross-check.

Easy fix – manually fly the aircraft via yoke AND throttles regularly when conditions are appropriate.

What would have saved those kids was a competent pilot.

Originally Posted by atpcliff (Post 1614175)

Well, you are wrong.

the 747 has the same autothrottle system as the 777. We were told in our groundschool that as long as the autothrottles are on, they will protect our speed...period....end of story.

They were in a specific mode (FltChange) and decending to level with their MCP set at ground level (ie "0")...same procedure as FDX is required to use on their -777s. In this situation, the autothrottles do NOT protect your speed!

Our training department/check airman were VERY surprised to find out, in this situation, that the autothrottles do NOT protect the 747 speed either. We did not find this out until the Asian 777 crash. Luckily for us, we don't turn the MCP altitude selector to "0" (ground level) in our normal procedures, so this shouldn't have happened to us...we were just lucky to use a different procedure.

The 747 also used to automatically go around at the MAP on a non-precision approach also...that caused an Air France incident (luckily no injuries). Boeing did NOT tell anyone the plane would do that, and it was not in anyone's flight manual or training procedures. As a result of that accident, Boeing changed their software.

Sometimes the manufacturer's screw up, also!!!

Now, should the Asiana crew fixed their airspeed problem manually? YES!!!!
But, that doesn't change the fact that the -777 (and -747) were not operating as the aircraft manuals stated they would operate. That is Boeing error.