Challenger Crash Aspen
01-06-2014 | 01:46 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 655
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From: Cessna 150
Pokey,
Passenger satisfaction is best achieved by not killing them. I've been a mil, an airline and a corporate pilot, not once in 40 years has seriously risking people or metal been acceptable. I've diverted many more times in 12 years of corporate than either mil or airline and never once questioned, including at ASE.
I've been in Aspen just enough to know everyone, including the airlines push the tailwind limits. I went over to Rifle one day when they were landing with a tailwind. As I said, our SOP is within AFM limits or go somewhere else.
GF
Last edited by pokey9554; 01-06-2014 at 02:12 PM.
01-06-2014 | 02:19 PM
#53
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Joined: Jan 2013
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From looking at flight aware for aspen, it looks like a few planes took off right after the crash. I thought the airport was closed. If they did, lucky they didn't ingest some fod and have another burning hole in the snow. Some pilots just paint a bad picture for those of us who do it by the book!
01-06-2014 | 02:23 PM
#54
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,013
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From: 737 CA
I've never been to ASE but fortunately have an excellent, zero-pressure corporate culture.
01-06-2014 | 02:50 PM
#55
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Joined: Nov 2013
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From: 7th green
It is amazing how many pilots turn into sheep when "the other guys made it in." I have see numerous examples of plane after plane launching into thunderstorms off the departure end until the first guy said, "I think we'll wait until it moves off." All of a sudden, NO ONE decides to go. Sad, but true.
01-06-2014 | 02:55 PM
#56
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Based on the audio, it appears multiple dudes landed prior, all with healthy tailwinds. So the accident aircraft was not "alone" in their "poor decision". Seems like some on here are quick to M.F. the accident crew etc, but based on what I heard on the audio, they did not magically appear out of the sky, being the first landing aircraft the entire day.
The tiger just happened to bite them.
The scenario in this accident could be arguably similar to DAL at DFW in 1985. Bad weather, folks getting in ahead of them, lets continue, etc.
As has already been admitted on this thread, people have landed with excessive tailwinds before.
Add in the fact that
1. job security of Mexican pilots (crew was Mexican according to some sites) may completely hinge on successful passenger pick-up
2. aircraft was possibly new to crew and purchased late 2013
3. Derivative of #2, "what do you mean my new airplane couldn't make it in..." from owner, then #1 is in question
4. Yesterday was Sunday 01-05. Monday 01-06, is "back to work" for Mexican business types and this may have been additional pressure to avoid delays and "get into the field" at Aspen.
5. Mexican crew may have been gun-shy about diverting into other, unfamiliar fields due to lack of familiarity with FBO's, etc etc.
The above factors do not excuse things but they likely played a role.
The tiger just happened to bite them.
The scenario in this accident could be arguably similar to DAL at DFW in 1985. Bad weather, folks getting in ahead of them, lets continue, etc.
As has already been admitted on this thread, people have landed with excessive tailwinds before.
Add in the fact that
1. job security of Mexican pilots (crew was Mexican according to some sites) may completely hinge on successful passenger pick-up
2. aircraft was possibly new to crew and purchased late 2013
3. Derivative of #2, "what do you mean my new airplane couldn't make it in..." from owner, then #1 is in question
4. Yesterday was Sunday 01-05. Monday 01-06, is "back to work" for Mexican business types and this may have been additional pressure to avoid delays and "get into the field" at Aspen.
5. Mexican crew may have been gun-shy about diverting into other, unfamiliar fields due to lack of familiarity with FBO's, etc etc.
The above factors do not excuse things but they likely played a role.
01-06-2014 | 04:26 PM
#57
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 102
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N115WF went missed on the first LDA-E approach to 15 - they reported a 33 knot tailwind. Aspen tower cleared two aircraft for takeoff prior to them being cleared to land again. After the aircraft crashed - there were no departures and the arrivals were immediately instructed to expect holding for an undetermined amount of time.
I've been to Aspen a hand full of times, and like another guy said on this post - 33 is seldomly used - primarily for VFR calm wind days (mostly by GA aircraft) - not 16knot tailwinds with minute updates 25G35 and reported windshear.
Regardless of what the pilots did wrong or didn't - show respect for the pilot that lost his life in this tragedy and my prayers go out to his family and to the other two in the aircraft for a speedy recovery.
Point being, remember that hurting your pride by not choosing to land is always better than hurting the hearts of loved ones back home hearing you crashed an airplane exceeding not only the aircrafts limits - but your own.
I've been to Aspen a hand full of times, and like another guy said on this post - 33 is seldomly used - primarily for VFR calm wind days (mostly by GA aircraft) - not 16knot tailwinds with minute updates 25G35 and reported windshear.
Regardless of what the pilots did wrong or didn't - show respect for the pilot that lost his life in this tragedy and my prayers go out to his family and to the other two in the aircraft for a speedy recovery.
Point being, remember that hurting your pride by not choosing to land is always better than hurting the hearts of loved ones back home hearing you crashed an airplane exceeding not only the aircrafts limits - but your own.
Last edited by Peak13; 01-06-2014 at 04:41 PM.
01-06-2014 | 06:46 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 102
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N115WF went missed on the first LDA-E approach to 15 - they reported a 33 knot tailwind. Aspen tower cleared two aircraft for takeoff prior to them being cleared to land again. After the aircraft crashed - there were no departures and the arrivals were immediately instructed to expect holding for an undetermined amount of time.
I've been to Aspen a hand full of times, and like another guy said on this post - 33 is seldomly used - primarily for VFR calm wind days (mostly by GA aircraft) - not 16knot tailwinds with minute updates 25G35 and reported windshear.
Regardless of what the pilots did wrong or didn't - show respect for the pilot that lost his life in this tragedy and my prayers go out to his family and to the other two in the aircraft for a speedy recovery.
Point being, remember that hurting your pride by not choosing to land is always better than hurting the hearts of loved ones back home hearing you crashed an airplane exceeding not only the aircrafts limits - but your own.
I've been to Aspen a hand full of times, and like another guy said on this post - 33 is seldomly used - primarily for VFR calm wind days (mostly by GA aircraft) - not 16knot tailwinds with minute updates 25G35 and reported windshear.
Regardless of what the pilots did wrong or didn't - show respect for the pilot that lost his life in this tragedy and my prayers go out to his family and to the other two in the aircraft for a speedy recovery.
Point being, remember that hurting your pride by not choosing to land is always better than hurting the hearts of loved ones back home hearing you crashed an airplane exceeding not only the aircrafts limits - but your own.
01-07-2014 | 04:23 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 988
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From: Seat: Vegan friendly faux leather
It is amazing how many pilots turn into sheep when "the other guys made it in." I have see numerous examples of plane after plane launching into thunderstorms off the departure end until the first guy said, "I think we'll wait until it moves off." All of a sudden, NO ONE decides to go. Sad, but true.
Part of the rationale is protecting hindsight judgment -- "Delta xxx, Republic xxx both decided weather was too bad, then YOU GO?? Why would you think you would be that much better than them?"
Similarly, it is a bit of a defense (not always legit of course) that "other similar types were doing fine so I decided to go."
Finally you don't want to put your colleagues in the awkward situation where you decide to go right after they decline, looks like you tried to "show them up."
I'm sure other areas/fields see similar phenomenon.
Stay warm fellas.
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