SWA 345 Transcript?
10-29-2014, 12:28 PM
#41
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 60
She seemed like a micro-manager who was trying to fly the plane for him the whole way in. I could see this type of stuff for "helping out" a newer pilot to the type, but he had been there 18 months. My guess, and yes i emphasize guess since we can't hear voice inflections, or know how previous segments had gone with this crew, his somewhat agreeable/apathetic responses may have been a compensatory mechanism to contrast her method of captaining. Seems like he was pretty with it during the approach briefing before sinking into the repeat followed by "yeah".
Her focus seemed to be with energy management. Captain's I've flown with on Le Bus with similar tendencies tend to fall into two categories; they've either been burned before by not intervening soon enough and are paranoid about it, or they are weak themselves and micro-manage because of their own short comings. In most cases verbalizing a little more, "hey I'm going to go V/S and dirty up about here" usually takes care of this.
Agree with previous posts about LGA too; yes there's water and urban areas right up to the boundaries, but the runways are more than adequate!
Her focus seemed to be with energy management. Captain's I've flown with on Le Bus with similar tendencies tend to fall into two categories; they've either been burned before by not intervening soon enough and are paranoid about it, or they are weak themselves and micro-manage because of their own short comings. In most cases verbalizing a little more, "hey I'm going to go V/S and dirty up about here" usually takes care of this.
Agree with previous posts about LGA too; yes there's water and urban areas right up to the boundaries, but the runways are more than adequate!
10-29-2014, 01:37 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,676
Originally Posted by cardiomd
It seems she wanted to "get down" so much she nosed it over.... botched landing 101.
How much room on the "backside" of the curve is there with a 737 airfoil before flow separation... seems to me one final pitch up despite idle thrust would have given a hard landing on the mains, more drag, and possibly salvaged landing.
How much room on the "backside" of the curve is there with a 737 airfoil before flow separation... seems to me one final pitch up despite idle thrust would have given a hard landing on the mains, more drag, and possibly salvaged landing.
In the use of modern nomenclature, the treats were piling up, and the management of those threats diminished or were never trapped/stopped. Noting wrong with going around......
Originally Posted by cardiomd
Is stall AOA around 17 deg like a small plane?
10-29-2014, 06:27 PM
#43
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
Originally Posted by JoeyMeatballs
Whats wrong with the F/O?
This is what happens when two people are flying the plane. The CA should have either flown the entire approach, called a go around, or just shut the F-up and let the F/O fly a seemingly normal approach into a not so short runway.
the HUD being down in basically VMC seems like it would be more of a distraction......
This is what happens when two people are flying the plane. The CA should have either flown the entire approach, called a go around, or just shut the F-up and let the F/O fly a seemingly normal approach into a not so short runway.
the HUD being down in basically VMC seems like it would be more of a distraction......
If you don't have the spine to tell this nit noid capt to shut her yap or to call a go around or to take over and go around yourself. Maybe this isn't the right line if work for you?
What ever happened to being assertive?
if I've got some whistling wombat screeching at me to get it down when everything looks good. My reaction would be to go around. We can workout the how and why after we have a couple of thousand feet of air under our butts.
10-29-2014, 07:22 PM
#44
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Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 551
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Crews are held jointly responsible for everything...except for two things:
- Looking out their respective window before turning.
- The actual mechanics of executing a landing in the flare.
We are trained that the PM will take the controls from the PF if he feels it necessary to avoid catastrophe. If the other pilot says "my controls" you don't argue or fight it, you just let go and and say "your controls".
Far as I can tell the FO might be guilty of an unstabilized approach, but he didn't wreck the plane.
- Looking out their respective window before turning.
- The actual mechanics of executing a landing in the flare.
We are trained that the PM will take the controls from the PF if he feels it necessary to avoid catastrophe. If the other pilot says "my controls" you don't argue or fight it, you just let go and and say "your controls".
Far as I can tell the FO might be guilty of an unstabilized approach, but he didn't wreck the plane.
sorry didnt mean to sound snippy..i'm fatigued!
10-29-2014, 07:47 PM
#45
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Originally Posted by MrBojangles
I don't know about at your airline, but at mine if there is an unstable approach we call for a go around (and that call has to be honored). The Capt. should have just called for a go around if she felt so endangered and let the FO fly the go around. Perhaps then she could have taken the controls and flown it around herself to landing. Wrestling with the controls at 30 feet isnt usually a good idea.
sorry didnt mean to sound snippy..i'm fatigued!
sorry didnt mean to sound snippy..i'm fatigued!
She was trying to salvage a **** approach, by taking it away from the F/O and slammed it down!
How many times has THAT ever happened?
Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 10-30-2014 at 05:41 AM. Reason: TOS
10-29-2014, 08:28 PM
#46
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,898
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
Extraneous recordings not germane to the investigation are not transcribed. She was probably giggling about something someone said on the radio but wasn't transcribed. At one point she says something about a United flight that obviously had an exchange with ATC.
10-29-2014, 09:00 PM
#47
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
From the FO's interview, this peaked my interest:
Is it common to put in crosswind crossed controls that early at WN? It's pretty standard practice in airliners to kick out the crosswind in the flare.
At 500 feet, he kicked off the autopilot and autothrottles and took over manually for the approach. He put the wing low on right side and put in a little bit of left rudder. He was starting to crosscheck and picking up visual cues with the cockpit.
10-30-2014, 06:11 AM
#49
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,898
Originally Posted by aa73
Question - what is the HUD policy at SWA and other 737 operators?
At AA the HUD is required for all takeoffs and landings, regardless whether it's VMC or not.
Was the HUD deployed in this case?
At AA the HUD is required for all takeoffs and landings, regardless whether it's VMC or not.
Was the HUD deployed in this case?
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