Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Pilot Lounge > Safety
The future of Digital NOTAMs >

The future of Digital NOTAMs

Search

Notices
Safety Accidents, suggestions on improving safety, etc

The future of Digital NOTAMs

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 04-03-2014 | 12:03 PM
  #21  
USMCFLYR's Avatar
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
Default

Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
Seriously, my comment wasn't meant like that. I was confused as to why one would need so many NOTAMs. I'll probably never convince you of that. But it's ok, life goes on.
KC - we've been on this board long enough and shared opinions that if you say that you didn't mean it that way then there is no reason for me NOT to believe you. Life goes on in either case.

But I do think, even in keeping back on thread topic, the government must become as lean and as efficient as the commercial side of aviation. To be blunt, it's the government side that's slowing everyone down.
like many coporations KC - I believe the FAA, and gov't in general, is fat - but it is like the USAF in my opinion - fat at the top. We have FAR to many *managers* while the grunts (that would be me even in my new life) still blast away on a daily basis and are eventually loaded down with more and more. When you see more of the process from the inside though - you also come to realize that it is FAr bigger than just the FAA slowing down things. When I see new procedures or redesigns of airspace (or let's use the new DME/DME SIDs and STARs out of KIAH as an example) it is amazing how many hands are involved in that process OUTSIDE of the FAA - just about every aviation alphabet soup I could think of!

There's no reason in the datalinked world that we live in the NOTAM system couldn't be automated and beamed directly into the cockpit/EFBs and towers.
The reason for this link KC....but it is wrong to think that it is always the big bad FAA who is slowing things down. there are people (and users like me!) inside the FAA who's job it is too push this and get it out yet they run into financial, technological and political roadblocks at every turn. Peronally I just help push/intitue a new way for my organziation to submit changes to the TPPs and AF/D that is much more efficient and actually gives the flight inspector some feedback that the change will be made/considered/or rejected; yet I seem to have stepped on somebody's toes in the process and gotten *out of my lane* along the way. Luckily in this example I had the *new* boss on my side and it is going to happen anyways. (YEAH - small victory!)


Another interesting observation. Whenever I fly overseas, we're always flying an NADP1 departure. But it's very rare in the USA. I'd imagine that if the noise sensitive communities in the USA found out that pilots weren't flying the most advantageous takeoffs from a noise perspective, they'd be angry. But we don't fly them because we're not required to. Which goes back to the theme, our government is slow to make the necessary changes
.
I was amazed to find out how often it is the industry itself that resists some changes - most often due to MONEY! many of these new procedures we have been talking about are all about flow and maximizing flow/time/fuel/efficiency. If there is a great idea about something but it costs money - the airlines are the first to cry foul (think rest rules as an example).
Reply
Old 04-03-2014 | 02:24 PM
  #22  
cardiomd's Avatar
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 988
Likes: 0
From: Seat: Vegan friendly faux leather
Default

Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
There's no reason in the datalinked world that we live in the NOTAM system couldn't be automated and beamed directly into the cockpit/EFBs and towers.
NOTAMS *are* beamed to my EFB, in my cockpit, via FIS-B, on 978 Mhz...

Reply
Old 04-03-2014 | 06:12 PM
  #23  
USMCFLYR's Avatar
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
Default

Can not verify the authenticity of the link, but saw this on another forum:
"In an unprecedented total disruption of a fully operational GNSS constellation, all satellites in the Russian GLONASS broadcast corrupt information for 11 hours, from just past midnight until noon Russian time (UTC+4), on April 2 (or 5 p.m. on April 1 to 4 a.m. April 2, U.S. Eastern time). This rendered the system completely unusable to all worldwide GLONASS receivers."

Here's the link: GLONASS Gone . . . Then Back : GPS World
Reply
Old 04-03-2014 | 07:35 PM
  #24  
KC10 FATboy's Avatar
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,196
Likes: 51
From: Legacy FO
Default

Originally Posted by cardiomd
NOTAMS *are* beamed to my EFB, in my cockpit, via FIS-B, on 978 Mhz
NOTAMs being sent to the cockpit or EFBs isn't anything new. I was talking about in the manner portrayed in the video. Does your EFB do this? If so, what brand and make is it?
Reply
Old 04-07-2014 | 09:46 AM
  #25  
cardiomd's Avatar
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 988
Likes: 0
From: Seat: Vegan friendly faux leather
Default

Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
There's no reason in the datalinked world that we live in the NOTAM system couldn't be automated and beamed directly into the cockpit/EFBs and towers.
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
NOTAMs being sent to the cockpit or EFBs isn't anything new. I was talking about in the manner portrayed in the video. Does your EFB do this? If so, what brand and make is it?
All right... ???

G1000 - displays TFR areas as red shaded on the moving map, updated all via FIS-B near real-time (I think every 2-5 mins or so) parsed from the coordinates in the NOTAM. Most GA flightbag software has similar features - most popular now is foreflight, which will put graphical NOTAM up right on the sectional. NEXTRAD wx on screen with near real-time update on my moving map in G1000. In FF there is ability to have your current position rendered on approach charts, and I think the NOTAMS are also there graphically (or at least a little direct link on the next page.)

It seems as though you haven't played with any of these in the past year or two? Nextgen has made huge headway even since I've started flying, and ADS-B is all over the East. Once 2020 rolls around GA will be safer when out is required.

Nowdays the SA tools we GA pilots play with will be implemented sooner than stuff you guys use, but yeah, the technology is there with NextGen.

What specifically do you mean in the video? I doubt it is possible / desirable to display some of the others because NOTAMS are currently lightweight text transmission and so are approach charts, etc. which are rendered.

So, translating something like "TAXIWAY B CLOSED TO AIRCRAFT >100 FT WINGSPAN BETWEEN F AND H DUE TO VEGETATION" would be exceedingly difficult to "display" on the moving map. In fact, it would then depend on the type of aircraft you are operating whether to display, and any rendering on the airport taxiway diagram would be very prone to error compared to text.

Once you move NOTAMs away from text (these still have legacy of morse-based transmission similar to METAR), then you'd have to have a simple version plus a graphical in order to make it human readable without significant computing power.... With a full and lightweight NOTAM you would then have to make sure they are coordinated, and the complexity rises significantly.
Reply
Old 04-07-2014 | 09:57 AM
  #26  
cardiomd's Avatar
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 988
Likes: 0
From: Seat: Vegan friendly faux leather
Default

Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Can not verify the authenticity of the link, but saw this on another forum:
The nice thing is that receivers now pretty much have full redundancy with GPS + GLONASS. I assume that commercial aircraft use all possible signals including Galileo system.

I remember back in my engineering days when some of the first GPS receivers started to incorporate the GLONASS signal, controversial! I remember seeing my first demo of the GPS in the 80's with text-only display.

Looks like it was bad programming.

Altus Positioning Systems Pinpoints Cause for GLONASS Default : GPS World
Reply
Old 04-08-2014 | 06:30 PM
  #27  
KC10 FATboy's Avatar
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,196
Likes: 51
From: Legacy FO
Default

Originally Posted by cardiomd
All right... ???

G1000 - displays TFR areas as red shaded on the moving map, updated all via FIS-B near real-time (I think every 2-5 mins or so) parsed from the coordinates in the NOTAM. Most GA flightbag software has similar features - most popular now is foreflight, which will put graphical NOTAM up right on the sectional. NEXTRAD wx on screen with near real-time update on my moving map in G1000. In FF there is ability to have your current position rendered on approach charts, and I think the NOTAMS are also there graphically (or at least a little direct link on the next page.)

It seems as though you haven't played with any of these in the past year or two? Nextgen has made huge headway even since I've started flying, and ADS-B is all over the East. Once 2020 rolls around GA will be safer when out is required.

Nowdays the SA tools we GA pilots play with will be implemented sooner than stuff you guys use, but yeah, the technology is there with NextGen.

What specifically do you mean in the video? I doubt it is possible / desirable to display some of the others because NOTAMS are currently lightweight text transmission and so are approach charts, etc. which are rendered.

So, translating something like "TAXIWAY B CLOSED TO AIRCRAFT >100 FT WINGSPAN BETWEEN F AND H DUE TO VEGETATION" would be exceedingly difficult to "display" on the moving map. In fact, it would then depend on the type of aircraft you are operating whether to display, and any rendering on the airport taxiway diagram would be very prone to error compared to text.

Once you move NOTAMs away from text (these still have legacy of morse-based transmission similar to METAR), then you'd have to have a simple version plus a graphical in order to make it human readable without significant computing power.... With a full and lightweight NOTAM you would then have to make sure they are coordinated, and the complexity rises significantly.
Well according to the video, they've developed a programming standard so that NOTAMs could be graphically displayed. I thought that was the intent of the video? "From Teletype to Graphical Display" For example, a taxiway closure or runway closed. And when the pilot looks at the chart, they see red on the part that's closed. That's what I was referring to.
Reply
Old 04-09-2014 | 04:19 PM
  #28  
HIFLYR's Avatar
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,506
Likes: 0
From: 777 Captain in Training
Default

Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
I have a question you might be able to answer.

AC 90-108 Use of Suitable Area Navigation (RNAV) Systems on Conventional Routes and Procedures discusses when you can and can't use RNAV systems to substitute for an inoperative NAVAID.

For example, you can't substitute an RNAV system for a out-of-service NAVAID when the navigation or procedure is NA (not authorized), when substituting for a final approach course, or substituting for a LOC or BCLOC final approach course.

With that being said, with the invention of RNAV RNP procedures, why would you still need to have raw data on a final approach course? The tolerances for an RNP approaches are tighter and safer than raw data VOR or NDB. Most operators today fly VOR and NDB approaches in LNAV/VNAV or similar fashion. If combined with RNP procedures, who cares if the NAVAID was working or not? Maybe not the right question. The FAA apparently cares. How about, why do they care? What am I missing?
I can only tell you why initially the FAA would not let you fly the APCH if the underlying navaid was ots. It was because when FMS, LORAN and GPS was first started all the existing non-rnav approaches were coded by the database providers i.e. Jeppesen, Swissair etc and dumped into the ARINC 424 data. These approaches were referred to as overlay approaches and were never flight checked by FMS or GPS aircraft in NAV to verify the database coding was correct. Back then flight check aircraft flew the approaches using the underlying navaid as guidance not as a NAV approach, not sure how they do it now. Because of this the FAA mandated you must be able to verify the course with RAW data in case the coding was wrong. When GPS or RMAV procedures are created they are tested using a FMS or GPS input and flown in NAV to verify the database coding is correct. I was fortunate to be a part of the ARINC 424 committee back in the early days when the industry was trying to figure out how to get where we are today.
Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
JetJock16
Regional
278
03-10-2017 02:03 PM
par8head
Money Talk
31
12-23-2015 03:03 AM
FloridaGator
Hangar Talk
26
10-02-2008 10:24 AM
flyharm
Mergers and Acquisitions
5
09-11-2008 05:08 PM
maximaman
Regional
31
09-03-2007 05:38 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Your Privacy Choices