I stand corrected on this. In this respect it is unlike the ATR series.

O.K.......a few more general thoughts (this IS important).

One concern is that this airplane MAY have been operating outside its icing certification envelope (something the crew may not have been fully aware of). Eagle 4184 was operating outside its envelope with the type of icing it was in (unbeknowst the the experienced crew) for ONLY about 5 minutes !

The end result of the ATR accident (hinge-moment reversal) doesn't seem likely here, but perhaps a general stall and mushing descent with what appears to be a 180 degree course reversal in the process. One similarity that strikes me however, is the sophisticated autopliots in these airplanes that can mask control or performance degradation until the aircraft departs controlled flight. The deaccelration and configuration changes (especially with the autopilot locked on and attempting to maintain altitude) can change the airflow equation over the wing (and/or tail) quite quickly and dramatically.

In the ATR (and Embraer RJ) at Eagle any ice observed on the side windows is to be taken as a clue the airplane is operating in conditions outside normal certification and the autopilots should be disengaged and the conditions exited ASAP. Buffalo is a known ice factory. The surface winds were out of the southwest but at middle altitudes above 3000 feet, the wind was likely out of the west bringing in moisture from Lake Erie. It appears most aircraft were complaining of ice above 3000 but seeing it slide off at lower altitude with less moisture and slightly warmer temps. I wonder if this was just run of the mill ice or was it frezzing drizzle (super cooled water droplets) that can run back behind the wing and tail ice protection to cause problems.

My understanding is that the captain was previously a Saab driver from Houston with only a couple of months in the airplane and serious winter ops and the F/O was in her first year (and first winter) with the airline. The 4184 crew had thousands of hours in type and winter ops, but still was snake-bitten so it seems this MAY have some bearing.

I don't see blame, only more victims that were part of the typical (and complex) equation that results in such tragedies. I've tried to learn all I can about Roselawn and I hope to understand as much about Buffalo. Right now, a young man has apparently arrived in Buffalo in the hope of accompanying the remains of his recently wed wife home (she was living her dream as an airline pilot). A wife has a husband who was an airline captain not returning from his last trip and children who must be loved more now for she will have to do it for him. Magnify this X 48 X all those who knew and loved them (in the 1000's) and we can see how important this responsibility of ours (to learn) is.

We cannot heal their pain, but we can learn and do our best to prevent it again and that IS our responsibility. Sometimes that involves painful exploration and understanding for that is the only way we can hope to reach that goal.

You are class act USMC. May the crew, passengers and those on the ground R.I.P.. Hopefully we can learn something from this accident so that it will not be repeated.

I flew with Joe only once but I know he laughed a lot... what's been vivid in my mind since the accident is his smiling face. I could still very clearly hear the laugh-chuckle that he does. In December I took a picture with another pilot at the ALPA dinner, and at the time I didn't know Joe was standing next to me too. In the picture he has that huge smile. He looks so happy and he was so young. Staring at this picture of him, it's just so hard to believe that he is no longer alive. I can't help but think about what his final moments must have been like for him on his way down. It's beyond my comprehension.

Very Saddened by this, and so sorry to all that have lost a friend or loved one;

This poem hit home the first time I read it...........

FLYING WEST

I hope there's a place, way up in the sky
Where pilots can go when they have to die.
A place where a guy could buy a cold beer
For a friend and a comrade whose memory is dear.

A place where no doctor or lawyer could tread,
Nor a management-type would ever be caught dead!
Just a quaint little place, kind of dark, full of smoke,
Where they like to sing loud, and love a good joke.
The kind of a place that a lady could go
And feel safe and secure by the men she would know.

There must be a place where old pilots go,
When their wings become heavy, when their airspeed gets low,
Where the whiskey is old, and the women are young,
And songs about flying and dying are sung.

Where you'd see all the fellows who'd 'flown west' before,
And they'd call out your name, as you came through the door,
Who would buy you a drink, if your thirst should be bad,
And relate to the others, "He was quite a good lad!"

And there, through the mist, you'd spot an old guy
You had not seen in years, though he'd taught you to fly.
He'd nod his old head, and grin ear to ear
And say, "Welcome, my Son, I'm proud that you're here!

For this is the place where true flyers come
When the battles are over, and the wars have been won.
They've come here at last, to be safe and alone,
From the government clerk, and the management clone;
Politicians and lawyers, the Feds, and the noise,

Where all hours are happy, and these good ol' boys
Can relax with a cool one, and a well deserved rest!
This is Heaven, my Son. You've passed your last test!"


— Captain Michael J. Larkin, TWA (Ret.), 'Air Line Pilot' magazine, February 1995.

Damn son ... that almost made me tear up Cheers to that, and I hope they are all up there cruising the skies in peace!

Had to fly today myself brother ... I turned the avionics off when my FO did that test ... couldn't listen to it. I flew today to honor Marvin's memory (and the others, I just knew Marvin very well), but it took everything I had in me to hold it together when I got into that left seat where he used to sit. I completely broke down after work and took tomorrow off.

I agree, I hope that everyone learns from this tragic and horrific event that took the lives of so many fantastic people. Nobody on this flight deserved what happened, and everyone deserves an honorable funeral.

Great post of Joe. There have been so many of Marvin when clearly so many people knew him, but I'm very glad to read posts of the other crew members and memories of them. They should all be remembered for their best moments

Dear god man ... that one made me tear up. Thank you for your post

With our Dashes, icing on the side windshield would indicate that icing is occuring on places that are not protected by the deice equip, or at least that's what I remember from ground school.
Any just to clarify, although it has been warm for the last week or so, Lake Erie is still fully frozen over. There was/is no extra moisture coming off it.

Of the five, Marvin was the only one I knew. He brings my "buddies I've lost" list to five.

Maybe doing our job is the best way to remember all of them. Much as we sometimes hate it, life does go on.

Kiss the kids, hug the spouse, and tell the parents you miss them. Then keep moving on.

Im on a trip now and the only part that really hits me and has stopped me in my tracks is the preflight. When I get out back and stand on the ground and look up at at the huge tail with the globe all I can think about is that awful picture where you can clearly see a dash 8 tail through the flames.

For some reason that is what really hits home on this trip.

USMC,

Please, let us know when a donation fund is officially set up for the family members of the crew members.

If you need any help or assistance with this please send me a PM, I'd be happy to help with anything I can do.