So there are F.O.’s that are 2+ years on the list and they can’t avoid all nighters? Not long ago, guys used to spend years and years on reserve before they could hold a line. If it’s down to under a year, I’d say that’s trending for the better. It was a solid year n 1/2 before I could hold consistent lines.

Can you avoid night flying after 2 years at UPS? I don’t know but I’m told no and you can expect it for the majority of your career there. You won’t spend the majority of your career at AS flying WOCL unless you want to. Is that a reason to choose AS over UPS? Depends on the person and how they want to live their life.

These Vs. threads are pretty useless because there’s no way to know where someone will spend a happier career. Someone may enjoy day trips at Allegiant more than 7-14 days on the road at UPS/Fed Ex. There’s a lid for every pot.

My point is that different pilot groups have different priorities.

For example my buddy was hired at SWA the same month I was hired at AS.

He did about two weeks on reserve before being assigned a line.

Reserve goes senior at airlines with proper staffing.

At AS **** goes downhill and it’s a good thing to keep in mind when considering employers. Doubly so for a PAX airline which has 1/3 of its flying in the WOCL, poor staffing and considerably poorer work rules compared to our peers. This is critical if the “music stops” and one is stuck at the bottom for years. Which is the current captain seniority level I’m flying with now: guys who were on reserve at AS for 4-6 years as an FO.

Last I checked that is what this thread was about... comparing employment opportunities. I’m not even trying to make a point. I’m just painting with facts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m asking what’s your point in saying, “it’s amazing how fast people become accustomed to 50% or better seniority in base”? Of course one gets accustomed to their stage in life. When I was on rsv, that’s what I knew and that’s what I was accustomed to. It didn’t last forever. Circumstances change. Yours will too and you will grow accustomed to your new circumstances. I’m not forgetting what it was like at that stage at AS, I’m saying it doesn’t paint a complete picture to suggest it will always be that way.

I’m pretty confident the OP understands how seniority works at this point.

Oh I see. You don’t like my opinion, so you’re asking the rhetorical question: “what’s your point?”

This reminds me so much of a 4 day with a socially awkward captain it makes my skin crawl.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok, deflect. If that’s your go to defense mechanism, fine. I didn’t realize your cage was so easily rattled.

I’m asking you “what’s your point”, or maybe better put, why, does my reflection of 4 yr life at AS mean that I’ve somehow forgotten what it’s like to be new or junior? And why is my observation of my segment of the seniority list any less valid than yours? If you think that’s rhetorical, that stems from others not caring about your opinion, not me.

I simply said that after a year to two, red eyes are avoidable. That’s probably not the case at UPS. Does this upset you?

After 1.5-2 years, SDF-based pilots on the Bus or 757 can frequently hold majority day flying. Those lines generally are not super commuter-friendly, though some trips have commercial deadheads.

You could also bid international; no idea how ONT schedules at that longevity look.

UPS is currently hiring for growth airframes, as well as retiring at least double what mandatory retirements are.

Express freight isn’t for everybody, but even within a given fleet/seat/domicile there is significant diversity in trips/schedules so most can find something that suits their physical and QOL needs.

UPS is very similar to FedEx. We do night, day and international. We do have red eyes, not that many though; the bulk of our night flying (“nite sort”) is: leave the hotel at 9pm, fly a leg into SDF, sleep til 2 or 3 in a private sleep room, fly leg back out, hotel by 6am. Repeat M-F nights. Start that with a paid ticket* to work on Sunday and another one home in the following Saturday. Week on/week off like this. These can go fairly senior but people either love them or hate them. Better than red eyes IMHO. Lots of day flying but it’s usually tied into shorter pairings and annoying for commuters - increasing due to rise in e-commerce volume. Reserve has been known to be a good deal with not getting called out much but we are short staffed and will continue to be so for a while so it’s not epic as it was - still gets bid on across the seniority board though. Generally speaking, schedules will own you 14/28 days mostly in longer blocks (7/7, 14/14, etc.) but it’s not uncommon to gain a day or two at home with favorable commercial deadheads, conflict bidding, etc.
*not all pairing have these Dh’s.

International is either loops around continents, stings around the world (MD/747) or inter Europe / inter Asia flying (767) doing the night sort stuff I explained above. Not unheard of but not exactly common either to do Europe or Asia out and backs. Intl is something like 40-50% of our flying. Downside is there are lots of 24hr l/o’s in these pairings.

Basically we average block 400+change hrs per year and credit 975ish. I think my low was 300 and I have a bud that stayed under 200 for a couple of years doing airport standby lines (dozing for dollars). But the schedules are tougher than the pax carriers, generally with trips starting at 2-3am. No big deal, shift your clock (be an early riser on your days off) and make rest / a healthy lifestyle a priority and it has minimal effects. We also have top notch vacation language which helps.

I normally see 1-2 AK guys jumping over each year. Same with jet blue. Sometimes a SWA guy. Best bet is just to grab a JS on us sometime and check out the op, talk to the guys. Lots of info on the UPS section here too. But don’t be put off by the night flying thing, it’s not as bad as it sounds. But don’t expect bankers hours either.

This is a great question because it reflects my actual experience.

In 1990 when I was getting out of the Navy, UPS was just spooling up. You didn't even need to go to Louisville for an interview because they were setting up recruiters in hotel rooms near the major military facilities.

I interviewed at Alaska and got the CJO. When I got home I was supposed to go over and see the UPS recruiter. However, at the time, senior AS Captains were at $154 an hour and UPS on every fleet paid $111 an hour. I didn't even go see the recruiter and took the AS job.

20 years later I was making $200 an hour and as a widebody UPS Captain I would have been making 1/3rd more. Going to AS over UPS was the biggest career mistake I ever made. I don't even want to think about how much money it cost me.

Redeyes? You'll have your fill at both operations, but after having flown widebody aircraft you don't want to be stuck on the 737 West Coast's most popular regional airline for your career. International is the way to go.

Choose wisely.

Hindsight is always 20/20. You’ll never know until you retire about the what if’s.

The schedule I quoted was the accident crew’s of UPS 1354. Reading the CVR transcript on that flight tells you all you need to know about the back side of the clock flying. To each his own, but no way would I want a career at a cargo carrier.