I think I misunderstood....


I thought Zman wanted to lower SO payrates to raise FO payrates.

I guess the loss of SO POSITIONS is what is being discussed.

You know what everybody wants? I thought I knew everything.

My post concerning pay raises, was just an attempt to find some "ade", for the non-captains, in the friggin' lemon that was delivered to ALL of us, last December.

I wasn't attempting to say what is right or wrong.

But, now that it has been brought up...Out of our 4700 pilots, we have over 2200 captains at FDX. Or nearly half. With the retirement of 3 man airplanes...That percentage will continue to grow. Until, the majority of our pilots are captains.

So rather than negotiate larger raises for just 50% of us(F/Os)...It would seem logical that we would want to negotiate raises for everyone. And, except for guys like NMB, nearly everyone would enjoy the fruits of those raises. F/O's would get theirs now and when we have seat progression again, they'll also enjoy the raised captain's rates.

Interesting statistic. But how does it apply to the average pilot instead of those closer to CA than to bottom SO? Or those hired at our median hire age vs. 28 years old?

In fact, if hired after 40, it means more time as FO than as CA if you leave around 60.

With my assumption, which is opposed to your assumption that one is hired much younger, the FO pay raise is more important than the CA pay raise.

Yah, you're right. I'm assuming that the average age of a new hire here is younger than 40. I don't think that is a stretch.

My assumption is that "the average pilot" is going to spend some part of his career in the left seat. Hopefully, still a majority.

I'm also assuming that somewhere near 100% of our captains are not going to be F/Os, again. And, they're eligible to vote on contracts.

Just trying to be a realist.

Busboy,

I would like to encourage you to avoid the "Pull the ladder up" mentality that is behind your assumptions. I don't blame you for that thought process. After all, it is ALPA policy. Telling us a big CA raise will "trickle down" is just that, trickle down economics. The irony of that is not lost on me since ALPA is Democratic candidate leaning and not Republican.

That attitude has left training pay at FDX at 2K a month. It also led to the weak LOA and, earlier, to MD11 gains above all else in the last contract.

Oops. You changed your post while I was typing.

So what is your assumption?

That a larger F/O raise produces more income for the majority of our pilots?

I'm not "pulling up the ladder".

I'm just trying to use logic, rather than emotion. I didn't say anything about a big captain raise. Others have spoken of a big F/O raise.

But, whatever...

Sorry, I type something in then edit to make it look cleaner. Usually not content.


I'm just talking about the old assumption that any improvement for FO must originate as a percentage of any improvement for CA's.

UPS broke that mold....

Nah, I don' know either. I assume that there will be a survey from the NC along with input from meetings, e-mail, etc to gain some sort of consensus
on what the group wants conceptually on all issues including pay. I was just trying to say that among other reasons, without that info it's kind of hard for us to talk pay rates effectively.

I wasn't attempting to say what is right or wrong.

I know. I tried to make that clear in my post, perhaps I didn't.


So rather than negotiate larger raises for just 50% of us(F/Os)...It would seem logical that we would want to negotiate raises for everyone.

Absolutely, I haven't heard anyone that supports just raising FO pay rates although I'm sure they're out there! I think what some people are advocating would probably lead to some 'uneven' non-inflationary pay raise percentages between the seats at certain YOS, but not a raise for one group at the complete exclusion of another. Was that a mouthful!

I still think the bigger picture is that however we frame this issue it really seems like it has the potential for some 'crabs in a barrel' fun before we even get to things like the optimizer, retirement, health care, etc....

Why don't we give raises to everyone whose last name begins with A-L.

Get serious guys. Unless we work together for the good of everyone, we might as well buy lottery tickets.....