Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyC
I believe you are confusing your flight deck access authorized by your job requirements and the flight deck access authorized by CASS.
If you are not a dispatcher for Southwest, United, Continental, Delta, UPS or one of those numerous regionals, how can your presence on their flight deck possibly be necessary or advantageous to safe operation? Do you get credit for 14 CFR § 121.463 "Operating familiarization" when you're in somebody else's cockpit? (It appears to me that you could, if it's in the same airplane group.) That regulation states that the requirement must be met in the same "airplane group", defined in § 121.400 as, roughly, props or jets.
BY reg you can do the observation ride in another carriers aircraft. By practice and approved training curriculum, you cannot.
OK..
FAR 121.547 (a)(3)(ii)(B)as performed by moi.
No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is— Any person who— Is an employee of— A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary
or advantageous for safe operation;
In other words:
No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is— Any person who— Is an employee of— A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary
OR
No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is— Any person who— Is an employee of— A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is advantageous for safe operation
From 121.463 (c): No certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations may use any person, nor may any person serve, as an aircraft dispatcher unless within the preceding 12 calendar months the aircraft dispatcher has satisfactorily completed operating familiarization consisting of at least 5 hours observing operations under this part, in one of the types of airplanes in each group to be dispatched. This
observation shall be made from the flight deck or, for airplanes without an observer seat on the flight deck, from a forward passenger seat with headset or speaker.
Therefore, as agreed before, it is NECESSARY for the dispatcher of a 121 domestic or flag certificate holder to be admitted to the flight deck (unless there is no observer seat on said flight deck, in which case it doesn't matter because no one is sitting up there but the operating pilots). This interpretation dates back further than CASS or the initial writing of 8900.1.
There is a provision to use a simulator for operational familiarization. However, the good old 8900.1 vol 3, Chap 22, section 5 paragraph 3-1703(c) states:
POIs will ensure, however, that approval is not given for operational familiarization repeatedly conducted in a simulator in lieu of actual line flights. POIs must not approve use of a simulator in lieu of actual flights in the initial new-hire or initial equipment categories of training.
In the previously mention 8900.1 table 3-0, the relevant section being referenced many times in the discussion already, the verbage for letter c:
Persons whose duty is directly related to the conduct or planning of flight operations or in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures,
if their presence on the flight deck is necessary to perform their duties and have been authorized in writing by a responsible supervisor listed in the operator’s manual as having that authority (i.e. certificated dispatchers, flight followers, simulator instructors, on-duty mechanics, and, for all-cargo operations, animal handler(s), hazardous material handler(s), those responsible for cargo security, cargo handler(s) necessary for the loading and unloading, or testing/evaluating, of cargo/cargo containers or loading equipment).
Again, as the stated above, it necessary for a dispatcher to be present on a flight deck to perform his duties as a aircraft dispatcher for a certificate holder. This verbiage, even opens up cockpit seats to 121 supplemental dispatcher/flight followers. He does not have to be present on EVERY flight. Nor does it indicate in the verbiage that to be a condition. Nor does this section direct why an off-duty pilot is eligible to be present on the flight deck (personal trip, company directed deadhead - which per FAR interpretation is neither duty nor rest, or going to aunt Suzie's). The verbiage only states that they are eligible to occupy the flight deck seat.
Mechanics, due to not have the FAR requirement to access to a flight deck at any point to perform their duties for a certificate holder, are not covered under the same umbrella as the dispatcher. Hence, there is the distinction for "on-duty" status.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyC
Assuming you dispatch jets, do you do observation rides on props and turboprops, too?
Or do you just ride to Aunt Suzie's?
I do dispatch jets, but have occupied the jumpseat of a turboprop before. I wasn't going to Aunt Suzie's that time, but it definitely wasn't for work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyC
If you're just riding, you're using CASS.
Now, CASS:
Op Spec A048 authorizes participation the CASS program. A048 Paragraph a states:
A. The certificate holder is authorized to allow persons eligible under 14 CFR Section 121.547(a)(3) access to the flight deck using the Cockpit Access Security System (CASS) program and/or the Flight Standards Flight deck Access Restriction (FDAR) program in accordance with the limitations and provisions of this operations specification.
By granting dispatchers inclusion into the CASS program, the FAA re-affirms that they are covered by the provisions of 121.547 (a)(3). So, if off-duty crewmembers are covered by 121.547(a)(3) and not 121.547 (a)(1) as indicated by table 3-0, is it not reasonable to say the certificated dispatchers are bound by the same rules; On or off duty as no distinction is made anywhere in the verbiage?
That's my, and few others, interpretation. That being said, every cockpit ride I've ever had has been an educational experience in some way. So I suppose, going to see Aunt Suzie has been has been "work" whether it need be or not.
As far as mechanics riding, it is addressed in the FOM. We all seem to get along as a group of proud union brothers and sisters. Some of the crews are even nice enough to let management ride along, as allowed in the FOM... some times anyways. Anyway, this is my last input on this subject. You may interpret the verbiage differently.
Reminds me of a joke I heard in dispatch school:
How a pilot reads an FAR:
FAR 121.189 (a) No person operating a turbine engine powered airplane may take off...
Captain: "well that's all I need to read, we're not going anywhere until i get a clarification from the FAA!"