FDX Jumpseats
06-05-2013, 03:41 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,377
There is a maintenance guy that commutes from DFW.
I'd like to know how his priority compares to mine.
He is on the jumpseat at least twice a week, and, since he knows his schedule before I know mine, he can book ahead of me.
What is my union doing about this?
Pilots should have priority for jumpseats over maintenance, or else why am I paying my 2%?
I'd like to know how his priority compares to mine.
He is on the jumpseat at least twice a week, and, since he knows his schedule before I know mine, he can book ahead of me.
What is my union doing about this?
Pilots should have priority for jumpseats over maintenance, or else why am I paying my 2%?
06-05-2013, 03:44 PM
#12
trip trading freak
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD-11
Posts: 673
Originally Posted by MacGuy2
Just had one of our pilots contact me for the J/S (MEM-CGN) on the 777. He said that Jumpseats told him he DIDN'T need captain's permission for the flight. It would be nice if everyone was on the same page.
MG2
MG2
06-05-2013, 03:55 PM
#13
trip trading freak
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD-11
Posts: 673
Originally Posted by Nightflyer
There is a maintenance guy that commutes from DFW.
I'd like to know how his priority compares to mine.
He is on the jumpseat at least twice a week, and, since he knows his schedule before I know mine, he can book ahead of me.
What is my union doing about this?
Pilots should have priority for jumpseats over maintenance, or else why am I paying my 2%?
I'd like to know how his priority compares to mine.
He is on the jumpseat at least twice a week, and, since he knows his schedule before I know mine, he can book ahead of me.
What is my union doing about this?
Pilots should have priority for jumpseats over maintenance, or else why am I paying my 2%?
06-05-2013, 05:45 PM
#14
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by MacGuy2
Just had one of our pilots contact me for the J/S (MEM-CGN) on the 777. He said that Jumpseats told him he DIDN'T need captain's permission for the flight. It would be nice if everyone was on the same page.
MG2
Jumpseaters in the cockpit are governed by CFR § 121.547 which states that no person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is --
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
or(ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.
I like dispatchers, and I like mechanics. They hold jobs which require FAA Certificates. They're good guys and gals.
But they are not:
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
or
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
Anybody who's ever watched Sesame Street and sung "One of these things is not like the others" can see the common theme with those categories. All of those people have a job to do in the cockpit -- "performing official duties", "necessary or advantageous for safe operation". (ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
The only exception is the last category, which is curiously vague. Persons in that category who are allowed access to the cockpit need permission from:
1) an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder
Apparently somebody in FedEx Express management has granted permission for mechanics and dispatchers travelling for personal travel -- not for business, necessity, or safe operation
2) the Administrator.The Company would have us believe the Administrator has granted this permission. Recent communications from FedEx ALPA hint at a different story. It may be that the local POI has granted permission, but it appears to run contrary to the interpretations from higher levels of the FAA years ago. In other words, our POI's interpretation may not be supported by the Administrator.
AND3) the Captain, the pilot in command
As always, the PIC has the last word when it comes to admission to the cockpit.
The only time I have ever received advance notice of jumpseaters was for animal handlers I was requested to permit in the cockpit. As it turned out, they rode in the supernumerary seats. On that same flight, I carried a mechanic who was "staging" to Memphis to work. I thought it ironic that the handlers were "cockpit eligible" while the mechanic was not, but that's how the regulation is written.If I sign in for work at showtime, walk to the folder, sign in to the computer and pull up the release, talk with the FO, and decide to deny access to the cockpit jumpseat 50 minutes before scheduled block-out, I will have broken no rules.
One thing that bothers me about the way Jumpseat Administration will apply The Company's new rule is that pilots who want to book the jumpseat might find the seats "filled", and won't know until the flight's showtime whether the Captain might free up a seat for a pilot.
If The Company had wanted mechanics and dispatchers to jumpseat on the B-777 for personal travel, they could have put a cockpit door in. They chose to leave it out. They make choices, I make choices.
.
06-05-2013, 07:17 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: protecting my license until I get the next job.
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by TonyC
The rules Jumpseat Administration have for booking jumpseats have nothing to do with the FAA rules for eligibility and no bearing on the Captain's authority. The FAA has affirmed that due to the absence of a cockpit door on the B-777F, the Captain "owns" every seat from tip to tail. Nobody may ride in the B-777 without the Captain's permission, regardless of whatever status Jumpseat Administration may assign them.
Jumpseaters in the cockpit are governed by CFR § 121.547 which states that no person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is --
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who—
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.
I like dispatchers, and I like mechanics. They hold jobs which require FAA Certificates. They're good guys and gals.
But they are not:
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
or
(3) Any person who—
The only exception is the last category, which is curiously vague. Persons in that category who are allowed access to the cockpit need permission from:
1) an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder
3) the Captain, the pilot in command
If I sign in for work at showtime, walk to the folder, sign in to the computer and pull up the release, talk with the FO, and decide to deny access to the cockpit jumpseat 50 minutes before scheduled block-out, I will have broken no rules.
One thing that bothers me about the way Jumpseat Administration will apply The Company's new rule is that pilots who want to book the jumpseat might find the seats "filled", and won't know until the flight's showtime whether the Captain might free up a seat for a pilot.
If The Company had wanted mechanics and dispatchers to jumpseat on the B-777 for personal travel, they could have put a cockpit door in. They chose to leave it out. They make choices, I make choices.
Jumpseaters in the cockpit are governed by CFR § 121.547 which states that no person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is --
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
or(ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.
I like dispatchers, and I like mechanics. They hold jobs which require FAA Certificates. They're good guys and gals.
But they are not:
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
or
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
Anybody who's ever watched Sesame Street and sung "One of these things is not like the others" can see the common theme with those categories. All of those people have a job to do in the cockpit -- "performing official duties", "necessary or advantageous for safe operation". (ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
The only exception is the last category, which is curiously vague. Persons in that category who are allowed access to the cockpit need permission from:
1) an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder
Apparently somebody in FedEx Express management has granted permission for mechanics and dispatchers travelling for personal travel -- not for business, necessity, or safe operation
2) the Administrator.The Company would have us believe the Administrator has granted this permission. Recent communications from FedEx ALPA hint at a different story. It may be that the local POI has granted permission, but it appears to run contrary to the interpretations from higher levels of the FAA years ago. In other words, our POI's interpretation may not be supported by the Administrator.
AND3) the Captain, the pilot in command
As always, the PIC has the last word when it comes to admission to the cockpit.
The only time I have ever received advance notice of jumpseaters was for animal handlers I was requested to permit in the cockpit. As it turned out, they rode in the supernumerary seats. On that same flight, I carried a mechanic who was "staging" to Memphis to work. I thought it ironic that the handlers were "cockpit eligible" while the mechanic was not, but that's how the regulation is written.If I sign in for work at showtime, walk to the folder, sign in to the computer and pull up the release, talk with the FO, and decide to deny access to the cockpit jumpseat 50 minutes before scheduled block-out, I will have broken no rules.
One thing that bothers me about the way Jumpseat Administration will apply The Company's new rule is that pilots who want to book the jumpseat might find the seats "filled", and won't know until the flight's showtime whether the Captain might free up a seat for a pilot.
If The Company had wanted mechanics and dispatchers to jumpseat on the B-777 for personal travel, they could have put a cockpit door in. They chose to leave it out. They make choices, I make choices.
(c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except—
(3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate;
(4) A certificated airman employed by another part 119 certificate holder whose duties with that part 119 certificate holder require an airman certificate and who is authorized by the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft to make specific trips over a route
Section (3) Allows for certificated airmen to ride in the flight deck of aircraft for which they are employed. Section (4) is the foundation for OAL jumpseating and CASS. Does FDX still use Freebird to run the jumpseat bookings? As i recall you could see the status of those listed.. ie P for personal, S for staging, etc... The FAR's do not delineate why they are occupying a cockpit seat, just that they can. If any pilot says they never rode a jumpseat for personal reason (vacation, going to visit family, etc) then i call shenanigans.
And while I will not dispute the captains authority, but from this and other threads seems a few of y'all are being harsh about booting MX and DX (an occasionally crewmembers based on past threads). In my youth I rode all over the country, and to SYD and back a couple times, on a FDX plane. I never had any bad experiences, and I did make a point to bring doughnuts or cookies or some kind of snack. Which used to be common practice.
I'm obviously not familiar with any new system (it's been 12 years since i gave up my purple ID), but sounds like there's some bugs to work out.
Last edited by Deespatcher; 06-05-2013 at 07:18 PM. Reason: spelling
06-05-2013, 08:04 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: Bent Over
Posts: 225
Originally Posted by TonyC
The rules Jumpseat Administration have for booking jumpseats have nothing to do with the FAA rules for eligibility and no bearing on the Captain's authority. The FAA has affirmed that due to the absence of a cockpit door on the B-777F, the Captain "owns" every seat from tip to tail. Nobody may ride in the B-777 without the Captain's permission, regardless of whatever status Jumpseat Administration may assign them.
Jumpseaters in the cockpit are governed by CFR § 121.547 which states that no person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is --
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who—
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.
I like dispatchers, and I like mechanics. They hold jobs which require FAA Certificates. They're good guys and gals.
But they are not:
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
or
(3) Any person who—
The only exception is the last category, which is curiously vague. Persons in that category who are allowed access to the cockpit need permission from:
1) an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder
3) the Captain, the pilot in command
If I sign in for work at showtime, walk to the folder, sign in to the computer and pull up the release, talk with the FO, and decide to deny access to the cockpit jumpseat 50 minutes before scheduled block-out, I will have broken no rules.
One thing that bothers me about the way Jumpseat Administration will apply The Company's new rule is that pilots who want to book the jumpseat might find the seats "filled", and won't know until the flight's showtime whether the Captain might free up a seat for a pilot.
If The Company had wanted mechanics and dispatchers to jumpseat on the B-777 for personal travel, they could have put a cockpit door in. They chose to leave it out. They make choices, I make choices.
.
Jumpseaters in the cockpit are governed by CFR § 121.547 which states that no person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is --
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
or(ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.
I like dispatchers, and I like mechanics. They hold jobs which require FAA Certificates. They're good guys and gals.
But they are not:
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
or
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
Anybody who's ever watched Sesame Street and sung "One of these things is not like the others" can see the common theme with those categories. All of those people have a job to do in the cockpit -- "performing official duties", "necessary or advantageous for safe operation". (ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
The only exception is the last category, which is curiously vague. Persons in that category who are allowed access to the cockpit need permission from:
1) an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder
Apparently somebody in FedEx Express management has granted permission for mechanics and dispatchers travelling for personal travel -- not for business, necessity, or safe operation
2) the Administrator.The Company would have us believe the Administrator has granted this permission. Recent communications from FedEx ALPA hint at a different story. It may be that the local POI has granted permission, but it appears to run contrary to the interpretations from higher levels of the FAA years ago. In other words, our POI's interpretation may not be supported by the Administrator.
AND3) the Captain, the pilot in command
As always, the PIC has the last word when it comes to admission to the cockpit.
The only time I have ever received advance notice of jumpseaters was for animal handlers I was requested to permit in the cockpit. As it turned out, they rode in the supernumerary seats. On that same flight, I carried a mechanic who was "staging" to Memphis to work. I thought it ironic that the handlers were "cockpit eligible" while the mechanic was not, but that's how the regulation is written.If I sign in for work at showtime, walk to the folder, sign in to the computer and pull up the release, talk with the FO, and decide to deny access to the cockpit jumpseat 50 minutes before scheduled block-out, I will have broken no rules.
One thing that bothers me about the way Jumpseat Administration will apply The Company's new rule is that pilots who want to book the jumpseat might find the seats "filled", and won't know until the flight's showtime whether the Captain might free up a seat for a pilot.
If The Company had wanted mechanics and dispatchers to jumpseat on the B-777 for personal travel, they could have put a cockpit door in. They chose to leave it out. They make choices, I make choices.
.
06-05-2013, 08:10 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
Originally Posted by MacGuy2
Just had one of our pilots contact me for the J/S (MEM-CGN) on the 777. He said that Jumpseats told him he DIDN'T need captain's permission for the flight. It would be nice if everyone was on the same page.
MG2
MG2
IMHO, they don't want to be responsible for helping non-pilots contact the CA for permission. That would entail extra work. Since they aren't into that sort of thing, we see a new policy. Our fleet CAs may even end up calling in non-compliant PICs for a chat to ensure this sticks.
Tail wagging the dog.
It should be JS admin's responsibility to get them in touch with the Captain.
06-05-2013, 08:15 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by Gunter
I think a big problem with this is management has changed the accepted practice (procedure) for booking the most intrusive cockpit JS. (Ironing board, whatever).
IMHO, they don't want to be responsible for helping non-pilots contact the CA for permission. That would entail a lot of extra work. Since they aren't into that sort of thing, we see a new policy. Our fleet CAs may even end up calling in non-compliant PICs for a chat to ensure this sticks.
Tail wagging the dog.
IMHO, they don't want to be responsible for helping non-pilots contact the CA for permission. That would entail a lot of extra work. Since they aren't into that sort of thing, we see a new policy. Our fleet CAs may even end up calling in non-compliant PICs for a chat to ensure this sticks.
Tail wagging the dog.
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