Originally Posted by EngineOut (Post 2740730)

I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the FAA deems anything <80% a failure. The FAA approves the SkyWest training, ergo <80% = fail.

I struggled a bit with my SkyWest initial in 2006 on the CRJ coming from flight instruction. But I figured it out enough to get through it with a douche upgrade sim partner (whom I thought was a great guy). Make it happen...if you can't, maybe it is not for you.

I really believe Camielle had the hiring algo down pat in 2006. Now, they do not care who they hire. Make it or don't. It is all on you now. 98% of those failures probably would not have been hired 15 years ago.

Originally Posted by Aviator2019 (Post 2741284)

Interesting posts, thanks everyone.

I am 1500+ fixed wing, 250 king air and the rest is mostly pipeline patrol. I have no instructor ratings and don’t want any. I would say the majority of the class were CFI, and most didn’t even have enough time to make the minimums at SKW, they were having to use the sim time to get to the magical numbers.

Originally Posted by Smoothlanding (Post 2741298)

For your 2nd time, I would try Mesa, they get a lot of guys through that failed at different airlines. As long as your progressing Mesa will work with you.

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 2741312)

For your second try go wherever is best for you that will take you. You have the advantage of having experienced it once and come close. With knowing what to expect, you’ll do better next time.

And for everyone going through the process, get the most highly motivated and experienced sim partner you can. Sim partners tend to either pull you up or pull you down. Up is better.

Originally Posted by Nevjets (Post 2740835)

Industry leading? Is the training, train to proficiency? Is there the ability to get a different instructor? Is there the ability for a union rep to observe a training session? Is there a training review board? Those are all things that are standard at most unionized airlines.

Originally Posted by Aviator2019 (Post 2740684)

Looking to find out if anyone out there has had issues with the training procedures at SkyWest.

We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”

To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:

“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)

SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.

Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).

I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.

Originally Posted by Floy (Post 2741468)

I'm sorry that the experience has left you with a negative feeling however,



I'd ask pilots what training/checking standards exactly, should a part 121 airline have? It's all relative really. When I went through initial there were no policy provisions AT ALL regarding a new hire getting extra time. You were expected to pass in the time allotted and were only given extra under extenuating circumstances. My SIM partner had issues in his family life and was given every conceivable option to work through it...back then.



I upgraded during the "up or out" times. This means that I, along with every other pilot that upgraded before me, sat in our oral and our check ride knowing in the back of our minds that a failure was the END. Our career and all aspirations would be over. Perhaps this is the type of performance under pressure required by an airline pilot?



Fast forward to the now where people get upset that they were only allotted 5 extra SIM sessions. 5 extra sessions doubles the number of maneuvers. Or they complain about not having a partner. True that it robs you of being able to learn from others mistakes, assuming you could process those mistakes. Another perspective might be that have an instructor as your partner keeps things flowing smoothly and gives you even more time to work on your own issues. Many different instructors causing lack of cohesion, or perhaps several different perspectives to figure out the best way to get through.



It pains me more than I can verbalize when someone cant get through. I mean real pain being experienced. But my pain has been reduced over the years watching more and more the feeling that pilots coming in believe that they are owed something from training. I admit that the industry is doing guys no favors by hiring them with 1000 hours and no turbine time but I have seen pilots being given every possible chance and extension to get through. How someone could see fault in that is perplexing. Pilots need to assess themselves and their abilities. Remember also that pilots are offered the option of resigning so as to keep training failures from their PRIA.



I truly believe, as was stated before that some people simply cant do this job. They may have started too late, or they may simply have a different skill set. But before one gets too bent about the policy, perhaps they should recall that there are real lives depending on the proficiency in the flight deck. If one cant get through with 3 strikes, or with double the sim time, or if I have to take the controls from from a pilot on a short approach because they cant get stable, it might be that complaining about the Skywest training department is not where one should be focusing their energy.



I dont know if Skywest has the BEST training department. I only have one point of view and nothing to compare to. I can say however, without doubt that no pilot has failed out for lack of being given a real opportunity to succeed, within a policy that was never so giving in the history of part 121 airline training.

Originally Posted by Aviator2019 (Post 2741294)

FAA passing is 70%

Originally Posted by Smoothlanding (Post 2741298)

For your 2nd time, I would try Mesa, they get a lot of guys through that failed at different airlines. As long as your progressing Mesa will work with you.

Originally Posted by Aviator2019 (Post 2741369)

To be clear, at SKW this is not a choice. It was all bid for and if you wanted a certain time frame you took whoever was on that timeframe.

Originally Posted by captive apple (Post 2741067)

This was in part why our pay rose mid agreement while classes were full. We now have people here who should never have made it through training.

Originally Posted by smc2020 (Post 2741699)

Hard to believe they were paying something like $22/hour about 4 years ago.

Originally Posted by smc2020 (Post 2741699)

Hard to believe they were paying something like $22/hour about 4 years ago.

Originally Posted by Erj135dude (Post 2741697)

The truth is that even though the job itself is "easy" once you're comfortable with the aircraft and the operation, the transition can be pure hell. I still have nightmares about my initial at flightsafety lol.

Originally Posted by Erj135dude (Post 2741697)

Each person is different, and some people need to man up and grow a thicker skin, facts. Some people maybe had bad luck too, but that's life. If someone is studying for 7h a day and can't memorize systems, then try studying for 8h, it is what it is. If your sim partner is really bad, oh well.... You'll have to do your part and 50% of his haha, which is also how things work in real life sometimes.

Originally Posted by ninerdriver (Post 2742004)

Are folks actually fired for not getting through training? At my airline, folks who don't get through training are told that they won't get through and offered the ability to resign immediately. The pilot would still have to explain that to a future employer, but the airline won't have to say "we fired them" during a background check.

Originally Posted by Check Complete (Post 2742009)

From what I've heard the new manager of CRJ training wants the termination to show on their record.

Originally Posted by PhotoFlyer (Post 2741679)

Exactly. We had a lot of cadets in our class who got first pick of sim time and partners. I was positioned near the back of the class and had a choice of 8 to 2am in SLC or 8 to 2am in Atlanta with no choice of WHO my sim partner was. I think overall SW training is excellent but as one instructor told me I had all of the cards stacked against me. They really do want you to succeed

Originally Posted by PassportPlump (Post 2742111)

Is a Skywest new hire pilot actually called a cadet?

I am saying this as I sit on a Skywest flight while it is currently RAINING and the OAT is +3 according to the ATIS. While we are deicing. Must be a couple cadets. Took them 25 mins to fire up the deice trucks because this is the first flight all day that has had to deice. Silly cadets.

Originally Posted by Check Complete (Post 2742009)

From what I've heard the new manager of CRJ training wants the termination to show on their record.

Originally Posted by PassportPlump (Post 2742111)

Is a Skywest new hire pilot actually called a cadet?

I am saying this as I sit on a Skywest flight while it is currently RAINING and the OAT is +3 according to the ATIS. While we are deicing. Must be a couple cadets. Took them 25 mins to fire up the deice trucks because this is the first flight all day that has had to deice. Silly cadets.

Originally Posted by word302 (Post 2742118)

Ahh. You must've walked around the airplane to determine it didn't need it.

Originally Posted by PassportPlump (Post 2742111)

Is a Skywest new hire pilot actually called a cadet?

I am saying this as I sit on a Skywest flight while it is currently RAINING and the OAT is +3 according to the ATIS. While we are deicing. Must be a couple cadets. Took them 25 mins to fire up the deice trucks because this is the first flight all day that has had to deice. Silly cadets.

Originally Posted by ninerdriver (Post 2742211)

OO deicing in DTW when it isn't necessary is as predictable as having to slow down for an OO jet flying thirty knots slower than everyone else.

Originally Posted by TFAYD (Post 2740840)

Funny how everything with you ends up a big union endorsement.



I was talking about training quality - not union remedies.



There are plenty of union carriers out there with a sterling program - XJT probably being the leader in that camp. So folks have option.



TFAYD

Originally Posted by PassportPlump (Post 2742111)

Is a Skywest new hire pilot actually called a cadet?

I am saying this as I sit on a Skywest flight while it is currently RAINING and the OAT is +3 according to the ATIS. While we are deicing. Must be a couple cadets. Took them 25 mins to fire up the deice trucks because this is the first flight all day that has had to deice. Silly cadets.

Originally Posted by bradthepilot (Post 2742160)

Without providing any evidence or basis for your claim other than "from what I've heard", this is borderline character assassination as you are essentially claiming the new training manager is vindictive.

Originally Posted by Nevjets (Post 2742291)

The reason that is true is because after reading this thread, it seems like you desperately need these union negotiated protections. And if these posts here are halfway truthful, I wouldn’t say that you have quality training. Training programs are written by management and approved by the FAA. But if you have a truly independent union that has a training committee with its members chosen by the pilots’ elected leaders, then you may have some say in the development or changes to that training curriculum AND how it’s administered by instructors. Right now you have none of these things. So when discussing pilot related issues at an airline that is not unionized, naturally that will always come up as one reason why there may be hidden issues that only come up when pilots are able to bring it up in a “safe” environment, like a discussion board or among pilots with union protections.

Originally Posted by Strenyakov (Post 2742435)

I was with 2 major ALPA carriers and one teamsters union airline. Teamsters was worse than no union. ALPA never had input into curriculum that I saw and I was in training. Skywest is high quality professionalism all the way. They fly in some challenging areas and have to maintain high standards. Currently, including the majors, they are the highest quality group of pilots in the US.

Originally Posted by PapaJaime (Post 2740739)

I went through mid-October, we had three resignations - no terminations. From the get-go we were told to “study together, or fail alone.” We took that advice and followed it. After indoc, we were informed of the three strikes and you’re out policy. However, they give you the opportunity to resign and not be terminated.

I came from flight instructing in a Cessna and am a very introverted person, but I knew that I would need study partners and friends throughout the program - so I sucked it up and studied my butt off with my group and then went back to my own room and studied more. If my study group wasn’t clear on something we asked other groups and then would ask for clarification from one of the instructors. We were told at times that we were over thinking something and to not dig so deep, but never were we told ‘sorry, get out.’ Also, there were countless observations of other people’s sim sessions. That different perspective helped me. I admitted I was struggling and not confident during LOFT and requested another session. The instructor was happy to give me another one. In the additional session I set forth my concerns during the prebrief and the instructor answered any question I had and helped me throughout the session. I will admit, there are some better instructors but none of them were unwilling to help me or those in my class.

No, it was not an easy program, Skywest is rumored to have the hardest training program of 121 operators, but I felt prepared when I got to IOE. Since getting through IOE, I’ve learned more from the everyday line captains than we learned in sim.

Originally Posted by Aviator2019 (Post 2740684)

Looking to find out if anyone out there has had issues with the training procedures at SkyWest.

We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”

To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:

“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)

SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.

Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).

I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.

Originally Posted by Strenyakov (Post 2742435)

I was with 2 major ALPA carriers and one teamsters union airline. Teamsters was worse than no union. ALPA never had input into curriculum that I saw and I was in training. Skywest is high quality professionalism all the way. They fly in some challenging areas and have to maintain high standards. Currently, including the majors, they are the highest quality group of pilots in the US.

Originally Posted by viper548 (Post 2742517)

I wouldn't expect much in the way of union protection while in new hire training. Everywhere I know of has a probation period for pilots.
I left Skywest 5 years ago, but the training there was excellent. Having been there 10 years, I've done training with the guys with the reputations. Show up prepared and have an attitude that you are there to learn and those guys are just fine. When I went thru initial training in 2004 they had the 3 event failures, you're out policy. All but two in my class of 40 made it thru (one was the infamous "Candlewood crapper"), and that was typical attrition. There were no extra sims and IOE was a max of 50 hours. Part of being a pilot is being able to perform when the pressure is on. The interview was difficult then. A lot of the guys not making it thru training now wouldn't have passed the interview before they decided to let the training department and check airmen do the weeding out.
Anyone needing advice on training- I don't remember if they had the syllabus with all the maneuvers for each day of sim published, but I thought they did. There aren't really any surprises, you should know which maneuvers are going to be done each day. Practice chair flying the maneuvers coming up on the next sim. Practice going thru QRH procedures. Know your flows and callouts. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Review the approach charts you are expecting to use. Do some observation flights.

Originally Posted by Nevjets (Post 2742592)

I never said that any of the pilots were anything but good people. Out of all my interactions with them, I’ve only had one person who I felt was a bit over the top. But there are those in every group. But if you had ALPA then there is a good chance that their training committee had a hand in the development of the curriculum whenever it had been written.






Typically the only union protection the probationary pilot doesn’t get is the ability to arbitrate being fired. But what I was referring to was the protections I mentioned on an earlier post that are already negotiated into the existing contract.

Originally Posted by viper548 (Post 2742678)

Everyone there wants you to succeed, even K.A.