Training issues at SKW
 

Looking to find out if anyone out there has had issues with the training procedures at SkyWest.

We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”

To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:

“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)

SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.

Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).

I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.

That is VERY surprising to hear. Less than a year ago I went through a full initial type on the 175 as a captain, and as usual at SKW it was an excellent experience. I’ll be interested to hear if others are experiencing the same issues as you. If so, that will be really disappointing.

Were you in DEN or SLC?

SLC on the CRJ

I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the FAA deems anything <80% a failure. The FAA approves the SkyWest training, ergo <80% = fail.

I struggled a bit with my SkyWest initial in 2006 on the CRJ coming from flight instruction. But I figured it out enough to get through it with a douche upgrade sim partner (whom I thought was a great guy). Make it happen...if you can't, maybe it is not for you.

I really believe Camielle had the hiring algo down pat in 2006. Now, they do not care who they hire. Make it or don't. It is all on you now. 98% of those failures probably would not have been hired 15 years ago.

The quality gate has been moved from recruiting to training a while ago.

And despite some interesting characters like F15 Jimbo, I found the training to be top notch. I would consider it industry leading.

TFAYD

I went through mid-October, we had three resignations - no terminations. From the get-go we were told to “study together, or fail alone.” We took that advice and followed it. After indoc, we were informed of the three strikes and you’re out policy. However, they give you the opportunity to resign and not be terminated.

I came from flight instructing in a Cessna and am a very introverted person, but I knew that I would need study partners and friends throughout the program - so I sucked it up and studied my butt off with my group and then went back to my own room and studied more. If my study group wasn’t clear on something we asked other groups and then would ask for clarification from one of the instructors. We were told at times that we were over thinking something and to not dig so deep, but never were we told ‘sorry, get out.’ Also, there were countless observations of other people’s sim sessions. That different perspective helped me. I admitted I was struggling and not confident during LOFT and requested another session. The instructor was happy to give me another one. In the additional session I set forth my concerns during the prebrief and the instructor answered any question I had and helped me throughout the session. I will admit, there are some better instructors but none of them were unwilling to help me or those in my class.

No, it was not an easy program, Skywest is rumored to have the hardest training program of 121 operators, but I felt prepared when I got to IOE. Since getting through IOE, I’ve learned more from the everyday line captains than we learned in sim.

Interesting to hear. When I was a new hire they were excellent about offering assistance, but the 10 hours seems to be the limit of the generosity. In my class it was usually one section someone had issues with (eg; Manoeuvres or Procedures) and the 10 hours was more than sufficient to pass if they were going to pass the particular validation at all.

I guess with the number of pilots going through at the moment they can only allot so much time before it throws the schedule out for everyone perhaps?

Sorry to hear you didn't have as positive an experience.

I absolutely hate the commonly told advice that you must study together in groups. Yes, that works and is apparently necessary for some people. But for others (myself included), it’s completely unnecessary and actually counterproductive. I’ve always touched base with my sim partner, and for sure the two of you MUST practice flows and call outs to be successful. But studying together? Not necessary.

Now that I’m at a major, I agree that SkyWest has a fantastic training program (much better than the place I ended up at). It’s challenging in that there’s a lot of stuff covered, but if you put in the effort it’s very reasonable and I have witnessed the training department bend over backwards to help people that are struggling. I’ve also seen people that showed up with an entitled attitude get their butt handed to them.

I will say there are a couple of SLC CRJ instructors that have reputations. I’ve had the two most notorious ones on several occasions for CQ. But even with them, as long as you were humble and put in effort, it was fine.

Policy is what 8hrs extra... sometimes they give more. People last year were struggling with loft (so the data said) so they added another session to loft footprint. The program is set up for CFI’s, and CFI’s do great . The struggles seem to be people that have been out of flying for 10+ years then decided to come back to aviation. Thats a tuff transition...

They seemed to go out of there way to get everyone through, but not everyone made it. One guy had washed out a year before and was gettin another chance.

Don’t rush to go from systems to sim, they are two different animals. Take time to learn your procedures.

I had a similar experience to the OP on the CRJ. My sim partner didn’t make it through systems and I struggled. Call outs are hard to practice on your own and others were busy practicing with their sim partners. I observed others sim sessions that were much smoother than mine. I had a different instructor every day so poor continuity. Had the late sim session 8pm to 2 am which was tiring since noise in the hotel started at 6 am and sleep was difficult. Not having a sim partner meant not watching someone else go through the maneuvers to learn from their mistakes. Ended up using up my extra sim sessions and made dumb mistakes in the Manevers Validation so was told by the examiner I should be good with a training session then retest. I got a call from the training manager and he said I used up my sessions so it was the end of the line. Was told I should come back in 6 mos because I was really close and was the kind of person they wanted at SW. Most of my instructors were great, one was terrible and I had the examiner that was the gossip at the water cooler as the toughest. I’m not one to make excuses and I studied my butt off but couldn’t pull it off. Undecided if I will return at SW.

Industry leading? Is the training, train to proficiency? Is there the ability to get a different instructor? Is there the ability for a union rep to observe a training session? Is there a training review board? Those are all things that are standard at most unionized airlines.

Funny how everything with you ends up a big union endorsement.

I was talking about training quality - not union remedies.

There are plenty of union carriers out there with a sterling program - XJT probably being the leader in that camp. So folks have option.

TFAYD

Is there a writeup/gouge of what the maneuvers validation is like?
I.e engine failures and other basic procedures?

Yes. You cover every single maneuver in training sessions before taking the maneuvers validation. No surprises.

Sorry to hear.. but you said only 1 extra session? You get 8 hrs extra... not just one session.. i hope you either find a good home elsewhere or you come back. They have hired a whole bunch of new sim instructor and a new training manager. I had a freind in that same boat. He came back and is glad he did..

This made me laugh

Thanks for the encouragement. I actually used up my extra sessions. I really did enjoy the whole experience even though I wasn’t able to finish. I made some great friends and most of the instructors were fantastic. My flows and callouts were a little behind. Everything “clicked” for me but it happened just a little too late. I put a business and family life on hold to do this and have to evaluate whether I want to do it again. I love to fly and may look for a local gig or something else on the west coast. I have no regrets for the time I spent at SW and would consider giving it another shot. A friend just got through E175 training and is enjoying it and telling me I should come back😁

Curious, what was your aviation background?

This was in part why our pay rose mid agreement while classes were full. We now have people here who should never have made it through training.

Elaborate?

You think sapa and the company are that coordinated to pull that off?? And instructors were not EVER told to let anyone through the cracks... your statement is false.

Common enough for folks new to 121 to not quite get there (especially if you're older, the neurons just don't fire as quickly as they used to). If you come back to the same plane you should do fine (at OO or another airline).

I've only been at SKW for six months and change, and still learning lots of things about the business, the 121 environment, and so on. However, my previous gig in engineering/engineering leadership provided me with a lot of valuable knowledge that is still helpful. For example, often we are tempted to judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions.

I can't help but wonder if something like is what is behind mr. apple's statement.

I've made mistakes on the line, and have learned from them, thanks to gracious captains who were willing to share their knowledge. I've also flown with captains who have made mistakes on the line and learned from them, graciously, after I've suggested that something wasn't quite right. And, I've flown with one or two captains who believed they could do no wrong while acting in direct contradiction to the SOPM (full reversers down to taxi speed with > 2000' of runway remaining for example) but even there I learned something from them. Fortunately the latter seem to be few and far between at SKW. Almost everyone is great to work with.

I'm the same way but most people are not. I show my face at the group session occasional just so I don't miss out on any tribal knowledge/jungle drums, or get a reputation as a non-team player.

Yes, absolutely must do flows and profiles with your sim buddy (or somebody if you don't have a sim buddy).

I did multiple training programs on multiple types at OO. If you can't get through it's either attitude/effort, or you need more experience.

Yup. Had both, if you're prepared it will be fine. Those guys are old school, they expect pilots to have backbone, so sit up straight, look 'em in the eye, and speak with confidence. The folks who get in trouble with them are the ones who show up hoping to throw hail marys to santa claus...

To me, it felt like it was a "free for all" while working on PV, MV & LOFT with different instructors. All of them are trying to teach their "techniques" while trying to follow the SOPM. Where's the standardization? How are new hires supposed to follow the SOPM & FOM when the lifers are teaching new hires their old ways? this to me is a big issue, but this what happens when you go train at the largest regional in the industry.

That also happens at smaller carriers that use flightsafety instructors lol. Standawhat?

Work hard, study & don’t spend all your few time at Lofte’s. SkyWest is running new hire classes in excess of 100 per month and most of them do pass. To the OP, if you do go to another airline, blaming the company will get you nowhere fast. Push yourself, ask questions, write emails to the training department if you have to...do your due-diligence.

Good luck!

I went through training at a unionized carrier and at SKW, the training at SKW was considerably better, FWIW.

What’s your flying background & TT?

Same.........

Sorry bud. But I’ve known many pilots who’ve moved on to other airlines & said the IT and training department at OO is top notch in comparison.

When will you get enough SkyHating?

Thirded........

My union airline offered none of those things.

I figure you are a sim instructor and would know if that happened. I don't think company would ever ask and that isn't what I said. My wording of slipping through cracks follows the unintentional meaning. This training department is full people that strive to make sure their fellow pilots succeed. There are still subjective judgment calls to be made and some have gotten the benefit of doubt.
I don't think you actually disagree with me that the company knows exactly how much time and money they are spending on training. They don't need any coordination to run a cost benefit analysis.

They are offered to those not on probation.

So not really relevant to the discussion of new hire training.

My airline offers some contractual recourse for people that fail but there’s no training oversight and AFAIK no one sitting in watching sim lessons.

I’d pro-union but you guys are doing it a disservice by making it seem like a union is a panacea for all these problems. At the regional level they seem to have very little real power.

That’s what I’m saying. It’s not relevant to new hire training. And good or bad training departments have nothing to do with whether union or not. Sadly the different FSDO’s that oversee training aren’t even standardized. New hire training is tough for those doing it for the first time. And Skywest is getting plenty of good canadates these days. That’s in part because Republic and Endeavor have slowed down hiring. In short, they can be a little picky right now. There are some that don’t make it at the major level. Although, the percentage is much much lower. And I wouldn’t go as far as to say unions “at the regional level have very little real power.” Slightly reduced effectiveness maybe?

Interesting posts, thanks everyone.

I am 1500+ fixed wing, 250 king air and the rest is mostly pipeline patrol. I have no instructor ratings and don’t want any. I would say the majority of the class were CFI, and most didn’t even have enough time to make the minimums at SKW, they were having to use the sim time to get to the magical numbers.

Thanks for this, I was in a very similar situation.