CN over Christmas - can anybody explain?
11-18-2019, 08:14 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,130
Originally Posted by Ace66
I saw a bar chart of one base that clearly showed everyone below a CN was working or had a pre-assignment. This was compiled by the scheduling guys and everyone had access to the data via Bid Transparency.
Can you find a line with a CN with junior people OFF that day? (or not working any other CN trips that could give them that day off).
Can you find a line with a CN with junior people OFF that day? (or not working any other CN trips that could give them that day off).
Yeah in my seat in my base for this month I can.
It is tough to know what the senior person bid for. I’ll assume on Christmas though.
Think about it like this, if CN does not violate seniority why is it is so poorly and ambiguously defined in the PBS manual. Everyone grasps the definition of PN, why not CN? People won’t fight too hard against what they don’t understand.
11-19-2019, 05:53 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: UNA
Posts: 4,417
Originally Posted by ninerdriver
I'm still bewildered that this is even a thing.
PBS sucks as much as you let your company let it suck.
PBS sucks as much as you let your company let it suck.
11-19-2019, 07:10 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by July2p2
I was awarded a trip labeled CN (Company Need). Page 55 of the PBS users guide describes CN briefly but I am unable to discover any bid award logic.
Can anyone explain this award or suggest further reading/references?
Can anyone explain this award or suggest further reading/references?
Originally Posted by domino
Great analogy.
But don’t worry. The PBS upgrade coming in March means everyone is gonna get what they want and nobody will be forced to fly when they don’t want to.
But don’t worry. The PBS upgrade coming in March means everyone is gonna get what they want and nobody will be forced to fly when they don’t want to.
I thought we could have a nice upgrade from windows 98' by January.
Originally Posted by Ace66
This is not true. Everyone beneath the CN'd pilot either is flying Christmas or cannot fly Christmas due to other constraints (carry-in, time-outs, or pre-assignments). This was proven by a study and posted in the SAPA forum.
Since when is SAPA right about anything?
11-19-2019, 08:15 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 427
Originally Posted by Ace66
I saw a bar chart of one base that clearly showed everyone below a CN was working or had a pre-assignment. This was compiled by the scheduling guys.
Can you find a line with a CN with junior people OFF that day? (or not working any other CN trips that could give them that day off).
Can you find a line with a CN with junior people OFF that day? (or not working any other CN trips that could give them that day off).
There is also a calendar-view chart in the RSR reports that shows the amount of duty periods per day, inclusive of carry-ins.
11-19-2019, 08:31 AM
#35
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Ace66
This is not true. Everyone beneath the CN'd pilot either is flying Christmas or cannot fly Christmas due to other constraints (carry-in, time-outs, or pre-assignments). This was proven by a study and posted in the SAPA forum.
PBS is just an algorithm, written by people. It can be fixed. I don’t know how to do that, but I will try to find someone who does so that this doesn’t continue to happen. This is a good company and I hope they will try to make this better for us. If you see an initiative come through SAPA in regard to this please help. That may be the best I can do. Thanks for your expertise, help and support. I will let you know the outcome.
11-19-2019, 09:21 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,130
Originally Posted by July2p2
There are more than 10 pilots junior to me who have multiple days off over Christmas. It is true that the system awarded me 7 days off over Christmas, then the CN trip was dropped into that gap. All I asked for was 12/24 and/or 12/25. Every trip I received prior to the CN award came from my first 2 layers. Maybe I made an error in bidding, but I don’t think so. If anything I bid too well. I got what I wanted and more, but I was awarded an exploitable gap.
PBS is just an algorithm, written by people. It can be fixed. I don’t know how to do that, but I will try to find someone who does so that this doesn’t continue to happen. This is a good company and I hope they will try to make this better for us. If you see an initiative come through SAPA in regard to this please help. That may be the best I can do. Thanks for your expertise, help and support. I will let you know the outcome.
PBS is just an algorithm, written by people. It can be fixed. I don’t know how to do that, but I will try to find someone who does so that this doesn’t continue to happen. This is a good company and I hope they will try to make this better for us. If you see an initiative come through SAPA in regard to this please help. That may be the best I can do. Thanks for your expertise, help and support. I will let you know the outcome.
I saw one award where he bid/awarded a terrible local in the 22nd while taking a vacation day on the 27th and was CNd a 4 day in between. PBS is an opportunist.
Taking a look in base the most junior line holder with Christmas off has to scroll up almost 30% up in base seniority to find the next person not working Christmas. More than 10% of those pilots were CN’d.
11-19-2019, 01:51 PM
#37
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,284
Originally Posted by July2p2
There are more than 10 pilots junior to me who have multiple days off over Christmas. It is true that the system awarded me 7 days off over Christmas, then the CN trip was dropped into that gap. All I asked for was 12/24 and/or 12/25. Every trip I received prior to the CN award came from my first 2 layers. Maybe I made an error in bidding, but I don’t think so. If anything I bid too well. I got what I wanted and more, but I was awarded an exploitable gap.
11-20-2019, 09:49 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 648
Our system at UAL uses the same method to come up with a global solution to make the puzzle work. Sometimes the senior dude gets screwed to make the puzzle work (guys sub 20’sh % are usually ok). The only difference is our system is not sold as a 100% seniority honoring pbs. We are told from day 1 about the possibility of the “global” solution. Where at Skywest it’s sold as a seniority based pbs, which we know is bs.
11-20-2019, 12:53 PM
#40
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by herewego
It's not company need, it's coverage day.
Simplistically: Everybody bid to have Christmas off. Since everyone bid it off, as PBS ran it realized partially through it's run that there were not enough pilots with Pairings in their pairing sets on that day that it would need to involuntarily award it to someone. You're that someone, as am I.
Lets say there were 10 pairings that flew on the 25th, and 20 pilots bidding.
Numbers 1-5 got the schedule they requested and their seniority could hold.
Once PBS got to pilot 6 it realized that it probably would not be able to cover those 10 trips with the remaining 15 pilots, so it massaged the awards to cover those 10 trips. By the time it got to Pilot 16 on the seniority list Christmas was covered, so the bottom 5 pilots got Christmas off.
You're in the dreaded CN Zone of about 30-70% of the targeted line holders for high value days. being in the top 30% you should get the days off your seniority earned. Being in the bottom 30% the CN's are already covered and you're home free. 30-70% = BOHICA
Simplistically: Everybody bid to have Christmas off. Since everyone bid it off, as PBS ran it realized partially through it's run that there were not enough pilots with Pairings in their pairing sets on that day that it would need to involuntarily award it to someone. You're that someone, as am I.
Lets say there were 10 pairings that flew on the 25th, and 20 pilots bidding.
Numbers 1-5 got the schedule they requested and their seniority could hold.
Once PBS got to pilot 6 it realized that it probably would not be able to cover those 10 trips with the remaining 15 pilots, so it massaged the awards to cover those 10 trips. By the time it got to Pilot 16 on the seniority list Christmas was covered, so the bottom 5 pilots got Christmas off.
You're in the dreaded CN Zone of about 30-70% of the targeted line holders for high value days. being in the top 30% you should get the days off your seniority earned. Being in the bottom 30% the CN's are already covered and you're home free. 30-70% = BOHICA
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
