Airline Pilot Central Forums - Envoy- Am. Eagle loses more flying to Skywest

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- - Envoy- Am. Eagle loses more flying to Skywest (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/skywest/80227-envoy-am-eagle-loses-more-flying-skywest.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason32 (Post 1596101)

You've made your choices. For those just coming online, or looking to, the message should be clear. You do not accept a job at a non-owned carrier, period. You take pride in yourself, and in your profession, and you take the job at a wholly owned. Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason32 (Post 1596101)

Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.

I wish you luck too at your subcontracting company.

Get real. That AA flow has been the biggest joke for the last 15 years. It was easier to get on with AA from the street by a factor of 5:1. Even with that said, I hope all eagle guys get a staple to AA. No ill will here. And it would be great if every major made the 50 seat their entry level plane. I've got no beef with that. We should all want that.

I'm saying it's silly to feel bad and go even further and apologize for our success. SkyWest pilots have a esprit de corps and it's not because some magic juice management passes out. We are pretty good at policing ourselves and bitter rude and unproductive pilots learn fast they are not welcome. Pilots who do a good job here at running an efficient operation. We make SkyWest a lot of money. We should be paid a lot more. And if by being efficient we grow, isn't that the idea?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustAMushroom (Post 1596311)

15 years, one must take into account that for over 12 of those AA didn't hire. Be careful with your "efficient" statement. I understand your concept but many around here use the same word in relations to confections and undercutting other.

The SKW culture is different that many other regionals, if you were to place the same pilot group with a different management as that of RAH or Mesa you would see a totally different result. The culture at SKW has more to do with the atmosphere management has created than the pilots policing themselves.

You do have a point about the flow but unfortunately many folks don't look at history and only base things in what have you done for me lately, currently they see the flow as 20 a month leaving from the top and management will capitalize on that, even this it has been a failure over the 14-15 years prior for reasons discussed above.

nvm, I'll save trolling Mav to EL.

Mason works for aa, I'm guessing he's apart of the apa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason32 (Post 1596101)

I drank that cool-aid from AE/AA back in the mid 90's.... Still the same snake oil.. Don't base you job placement on a "flow" or a "wholly owned"...

So if the 50 seaters are all crap and no one wants then why is OO buying there lease end 200's and replacing CHQ and Lakes.. I think OO found a nitch. Someone has to fly to these city's... And cheap lease returns and prorate seem to be the combo...

If there's any advice I can offer a new pilot it's NEVER work for a wholly owned. You have zero leverage when they come and tell you "take concessions on your 21k/year or we'll shut you down". If you're at a fee for departure carrier that threat doesn't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustAMushroom (Post 1596311)

I agree with that, we are pretty good and we make Skywest successful and we pay for all the stupid mistakes Inc makes (Mekong, Brazil, XJT, etc). If it wasn't for the Hen with the golden eggs (Skywest Airlines), Inc would be in serious trouble by now.

I do not mind telling the guys I am sorry they are loosing their flying because they held against their management and even more when news comes out that we are getting some of that. I do not apologize for us at Skywest being efficient but I can feel solidarity and understand that it looks pretty bad from their point of view.

Apologize does not necessary mean weakness or something bad, it just shows that one is able to see it from their point of view. Aside from that we seem to agree that the result from the vote was pitiful and I for one felt the pilot group was fooled and wish we had the "balls" of Envoy and XJT when we vote and still be productive and effective like we are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HermannGraf (Post 1595760)

I am sorry the guys at Envoy that are fighting not only for themselves but for all pilots at the Regional level are seeing the flying go away to other places. Some pilots can say that we as pilots have nothing to do with it and that it is only management that is to blame but I see this flying coming to us as a clear result of our pilot group voting yes for our concessionary pay package that gave our management the opportunity to be even cheaper. Our vote result was wrong when others are fighting for us. The pilot group was told from different sources that we did not have any leverage and immediately after the vote media was full of our leverage. It is sad that we as a pilot group did not understand the situation better and that we did not stand stronger but it is done and we should learn from it. Negotiations are about to start again and this time we should stand firm and demand what we have lost in years. There will be plenty of flying around as every Regional will have a hard time finding pilots and attrition is killing them.
To the Envoy guys, I am sorry.

If only you guys were unionized like EGL and XJT, you may have gotten more of the correct information about your pay package you voted on. Without the job protections of unionization, most people won't speak up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuzzyair (Post 1595764)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcfd13

The only major that Skywest (Inc.) does a huge percentage of regional flying for is Delta. That's probably part of the reason they wanted to buy PNCL and have given a lot of flying to Compass. 30 planes between AA/US is nothing.

Pinnacle was purchased because Delta had absolutely no way to cover the amount of flying they did had they closed up shop. With the purchase, Delta can oversee the parking of the -200. Also, Compass hardly has a lot of flying. They have 42 airplanes and have not grown and will not grow.

These routes that SkyWest will be flying for AA are some Envoy/Eagle routes and some Chautauqua. I believe EGF/CHQ both flew the ICT/MKE markets where as EGF flew YUL/CHO. It's directly related to the parking for the 140/145's by both Eagle and CHQ. OO is utilizing planes coming off contract with DL and will be operating these as pro-rate/at-risk flying.

The last annual report showed 7 CRJ200s unassigned. Are these the DL aircraft you speak of?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HermannGraf (Post 1596053)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustAMushroom

Oh give it a rest. I was a no vote and even I say that it wasn't really a concession. It wasn't a large pay increase, which is what we should have had. But to apologize to envoy for what? For putting a hand full if plane in a base for AA? Eagle held strong, good for them. When we get to vote again we should not take anything less than a 10% raise either. But I'm not going to apologize for doing well and succeeding.

Get of the Mushroom, lol
I was a no vote because I understand the numbers and the numbers told me we did not in any way get a raise. Why did you vote no? Pay increase, C'mon, what pay increase? We took concessions, Do you mean that the pay raise was the "make you believe we giving you something" medical pay and more for the uniform and 3 minutes more while they raise the reserve to 76, did not re-negotiate the 1% cola and are paying the raise for the bro with savings in training due to new seat locks?

The company saved money on this last package. 1% cola that was not re-negotiated for the pilot group would have cost the company more than the symbolic bs we got.

The company played the game well outsmarted the pilot group and used SAPA as help.......

Did they also renegotiate the me too language for the ASA/XJT contract or was that given away as well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustAMushroom (Post 1596280)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HermannGraf

Get of the Mushroom, lol
I was a no vote because I understand the numbers and the numbers told me we did not in any way get a raise. Why did you vote no? Pay increase, C'mon, what pay increase? We took concessions, Do you mean that the pay raise was the "make you believe we giving you something" medical pay and more for the uniform and 3 minutes more while they raise the reserve to 76, did not re-negotiate the 1% cola and are paying the raise for the bro with savings in training due to new seat locks?

The company saved money on this last package. 1% cola that was not re-negotiated for the pilot group would have cost the company more than the symbolic bs we got.

The company played the game well outsmarted the pilot group and used SAPA as help.......

I voted no for those exact reasons. And also because we continue to improve on experience and efficiency and need to be compensated for it. And because they can find $2M+ for a hand full of management but give 3000 $2M. And because the 175 wasn't a raise. And especially especially because the cola is gone.

Yes, it should have been sent back. Yes SAPA should be reorganized. Do I feel bad for SkyWest growth? Not one bit. The only time We should balk at growth is if it was a direct result of shrinking a major.

I don't wish any bad on any regional pilot group. Even Pinnacle or PSA. And any growth we achieve from their loss should come with a preferential interview. But do I think we should stop growth for their benefit? No. And I'm not going to apologize for that.

Any growth any regional gets with another regionals aircraft should take the pilots with them with longevity and seniority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustAMushroom (Post 1596311)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason32

You've made your choices. For those just coming online, or looking to, the message should be clear. You do not accept a job at a non-owned carrier, period. You take pride in yourself, and in your profession, and you take the job at a wholly owned. Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason32

Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.

I wish you luck too at your subcontracting company.

Get real. That AA flow has been the biggest joke for the last 15 years. It was easier to get on with AA from the street by a factor of 5:1. Even with that said, I hope all eagle guys get a staple to AA. No ill will here. And it would be great if every major made the 50 seat their entry level plane. I've got no beef with that. We should all want that.

I'm saying it's silly to feel bad and go even further and apologize for our success. SkyWest pilots have a esprit de corps and it's not because some magic juice management passes out. We are pretty good at policing ourselves and bitter rude and unproductive pilots learn fast they are not welcome. Pilots who do a good job here at running an efficient operation. We make SkyWest a lot of money. We should be paid a lot more. And if by being efficient we grow, isn't that the idea?

You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.