Airline Pilot Central Forums - Will SWA Ever Rival Legacy Pay??

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- - Will SWA Ever Rival Legacy Pay?? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/southwest/104061-will-swa-ever-rival-legacy-pay.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowdawg (Post 2391822)

Why 65 hours? reserve guarantee is from 72 to 80, average 75. Don't forget to take that times 16 percent plus profit sharing.

Uz's a little short on your math.

Was using guarantee as provided on APC. Read the whole post as I didn't include retirement or profit sharing into the equation.

I'd suggest following the post in its entirety prior to makin accusations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mainlineAF (Post 2391816)

US Airways had a cap. Depending on the month it could be 80, 85 or 90.

At AA we do have a thing called IMAX. It's super confusing but basically is supposed to limit you to 90 hours in a rolling 12 months. If you play it right you can get a month off with full pay.

Interesting. People here would riot at the mere mention of anything resembling a cap on pay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowdawg (Post 2391822)

Why 65 hours? reserve guarantee is from 72 to 80, average 75. Don't forget to take that times 16 percent plus profit sharing.

Uz's a little short on your math.

Because he, like many SW pilots, can't or won't admit that our contract does not, and will likely never, rival a legacy contract.

I honestly don't know what riles these guys up.

Facts are facts. Like Whackmaster said, there are some good, heck, great things about our contract, and some things that would embarrass a regional guy. :eek:

Our flexibility is nice, especially when you're senior enough to avoid all the pitfalls SWApA and the pilot group have added (at the company's behest, yet lauded as SWApA "gains") into ELITT and other stuff over the years

I do agree with ANG that our productivity makes for better work to days off ratios than some others. The downside is that we work long (and trending longer) regional type duty days when we're there.

IMHO, considering the exponentially higher value that the average SW pilot's productivity adds to the bottom line, day in and day out, compared to his/her counterparts at other majors, we should have one of the best overall contracts in the industry.

Add in the fact that we are locked into narrow body AC for our entire careers, not to mention we work for a company that has never even hinted at Ch11, this should be a no brainer. And yet we always end up with less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANGFlight81 (Post 2391838)

If you're gonna compare, how about comparing apples with apples. There's at least a $30k difference using minimum guarantee for both companies.

Does the <$230k I'd make flying guarantee at SW at the current rates, minus the $500 parking, somehow equal the $260ish that you calculated for DAL? That sounds like "SWApA" math, like the 108tfp "average" that we fly.

There's also what, a 4% difference in retirement contribution, not to mention the $500 I've got to dig out of my pocket every year for parking. I won't even get into the block time comparisons, nor the number of legs flown.

:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipKid;2391846
IMHO, considering the exponentially higher value that the average SW pilot's productivity adds to the bottom line, day in and day out, compared to his/her counterparts at other majors, we should have one of the [I

best[/I] overall contracts in the industry.

Add in the fact that we are locked into narrow body AC for our entire careers, not to mention we work for a company that has never even hinted at Ch11, this should be a no brainer. And yet we always end up with less.

I don't always agree with you, but you and I are lock step on this one. I don't know why so many pilots here make excuses for the company putting a lower value on us considering what we bring to them with our productivity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan (Post 2391746)

That's nothing. I'm projecting 101 TFP and enjoying my days off this summer. [emoji6]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Megaslacker! ;)

In all seriousness, that's awesome. Hope the JA powers leave you alone too. Do share, how many days off is that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipKid

IMHO, barring another 9/11 type incident, we will never be anywhere near the top in pay, benefits or much else.

This pilot group will simply not allow it.

You are dead wrong when it comes to our pay. I do agree that benefits, especially LTD/LOL could substantially improve and that is the reason why I voted NO.

Let me break it down again, but using relevant numbers and aircraft.

A topped out Delta 738 captain makes $265/hour. Let's have him credit 100 hours per month consistently for 12 months. That's $318,000/year.

Translated to SWAhili, that's $318,000/218.25 per TFP = 1,457 TFP or 121.42 TFP per month what you need to credit to make what a top-of-the-payscale 100 hours every month crediting Delta 738 captain makes. Now, I don't know how much you know about our new reserve being a 22-year veteran, but 121 TFP is often achieved not even picking up anything on any reserve, and we're talking bottom of the list.

Now... how many guys do you know that pick up and fly way more than 121 TFP in a month?

Stuck in a narrowbody for the career and aren't happy that you're falling behind your peers? Again, let's play with the topped out numbers. Delta B-777 captain is at $330/hour x 1200 hours a year is $396,000. Again, in SWAhili, using your $218.25 TFP, you need to fly 151.20 TFP average to make that. Now you're in my territory... that's about what I choose to fly in a month... 16-18 days or so with some ELITT and premium, likely substantially less days worked with your horsepower.

One other thing you need to ask yourself, what percentage of Delta captains consistently achieve 100 hours of credit per month all year long? All of them?

Yes, I get it, a B-777 captain at Delta doesn't work as much as you do, and it's not the proper comparison considering we don't fly widebodies, but it only goes to show you what it would take for you to make up the difference for you to feel less inadequate.

So, in order to help our own 84%'ers take you seriously, you need to realistically compare numbers, and really, you're not.

Here's where we DO lag, and this is what you should highlight if you're trying to actually make the 84%'ers think about what needs to change. Our LOL/LTD is lagging our peers substantially. This was actually THE biggest reason I voted NO on TA2. For a company that preaches "the Golden Rule," it's awfully hypocritical to just throw you out the way they do if you find yourself out on prolonged medical disability. THIS is where we lag our peers and THIS is what needs to improve.

Other reasons I voted NO include some weak language, and the company's ability to stall implementation of certain portions of our new without financial penalties. For example as piddly as it is, red-eye pay, RCO, B-plan implementation, etc.

Our hotel language, though getting better, is not where we should be.

Crew meals issue is piddly. A number of my friends at legacies won't even touch theirs. But then again, isn't this what per diem is for?

Parking is a minor annoyance.

Here's where we do shine... I don't know if you use our Regular Plan for medical insurance, but it costs my family exactly 0 each month, and I know my max out of pocket expense is $2500 for the year should we encounter some major medical issues. My probie year, both my wife and I had medical issues, and $2500 was all we paid for out of pocket, and it included surgeries and treatments. How many legacies have literally free medical?

Do we have Southwest Express regional jets "exploring" our new markets? Nope, our scope still doesn't allow Mesa to fly regional jets as Southwest Express. I'm however very leery of the international codeshare. Speaking of, perhaps you should read a tad more into or ask our Delta brother/sister about the "industry-standard" joint ventures that outsource widebody flying to foreign carriers.

The point to my post is that if you're slinging feces all over the place and seeing what sticks, you're not really helping the cause of lifting the truly deficient parts of our contract up because you'll say things like our pay is not "industry standard" which will cause the vast majority of our brothers and sisters to roll our eyes and tune you out as evident by the TA2 vote, and yet you have some excellent points that we should all pay attention to but don't because of other stuff you say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by e6bpilot (Post 2391866)

Amen brother. I can't fathom it either, but I will say that it is nothing new. It's been like this as long as I've been here.

About the only thing I don't agree with you on is the ease of making 150 tfp at SW, which of course, is subjective.

What you consider easy might be a ton of work for others, unless of course, you live in some kind of magic bubble where people actually take your trips and net zero is always more than 4. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76 (Post 2391869)

You are dead wrong when it comes to our pay. I do agree that benefits, especially LTD/LOL could substantially improve and that is the reason why I voted NO.

How am I wrong? The numbers are there. In black and white.

To equal our peers in pay, your numbers show that we have to work more days and block substantially more hours.

Quote:

Let me break it down again, but using relevant numbers and aircraft.

A topped out Delta 738 captain makes $265/hour. Let's have him credit 100 hours per month consistently for 12 months. That's $318,000/year.

Translated to SWAhili, that's $318,000/218.25 per TFP = 1,457 TFP or 121.42 TFP per month what you need to credit to make what a top-of-the-payscale 100 hours every month crediting Delta 738 captain makes.

121 tfp per month is at least 3-4 extra days of work, not to mention an extra commute.

Quote:

Now, I don't know how much you know about our new reserve being a 22-year veteran, but 121 TFP is often achieved not even picking up anything on any reserve, and we're talking bottom of the list.

Admittedly, I don't know, or even care much about the reserve rules as they pertain to me, since I will never voluntarily sit it.

For the sake of the junior guys, I am glad that we were able to at least partially fix reserve in the current contract.

Quote:

Now... how many guys do you know that pick up and fly way more than 121 TFP in a month?

Too many.

Quote:

Stuck in a narrowbody for the career and aren't happy that you're falling behind your peers? Again, let's play with the topped out numbers. Delta B-777 captain is at $330/hour x 1200 hours a year is $396,000. Again, in SWAhili, using your $218.25 TFP, you need to fly 151.20 TFP average to make that. Now you're in my territory... that's about what I choose to fly in a month... 16-18 days or so with some ELITT and premium, likely substantially less days worked with your horsepower.

LOL... 16-18 days per month. Are you serious? I'm in the red just thinking about that.

The only way a SW guy (other than E6B ;) ) can reliably make 150tfp per month without killing themselves is if they're able to get rid straight paying trips and replace them with premium flying. That is damn near impossible nowadays, and it's not for lack of trying. Net Zero is always zero, and people don't even take midweek Capt turns anymore. Forget about 2 or gasp, 3 days.

Quote:

One other thing you need to ask yourself, what percentage of Delta captains consistently achieve 100 hours of credit per month all year long? All of them?

Yes, I get it, a B-777 captain at Delta doesn't work as much as you do, and it's not the proper comparison considering we don't fly widebodies, but it only goes to show you what it would take for you to make up the difference for you to feel less inadequate.

Thank you for proving my point, which was simply that we don't have, nor are we likely to get a contract that rivals a legacy contract.

It boils down to this: If I want more, I can work more. Not a bad thing, IMHO, but still doesn't make our contract rival a legacy.

Quote:

So, in order to help our own 84%'ers take you seriously, you need to realistically compare numbers, and really, you're not.

I'm not? Read your numbers again. They all prove that we need to work more to make industry level pay. And that's not even including all of the non pay related, sub industry average stuff that you describe below.

Quote:

Here's where we DO lag, and this is what you should highlight if you're trying to actually make the 84%'ers think about what needs to change. Our LOL/LTD is lagging our peers substantially. This was actually THE biggest reason I voted NO on TA2. For a company that preaches "the Golden Rule," it's awfully hypocritical to just throw you out the way they do if you find yourself out on prolonged medical disability. THIS is where we lag our peers and THIS is what needs to improve.

Other reasons I voted NO include some weak language, and the company's ability to stall implementation of certain portions of our new without financial penalties. For example as piddly as it is, red-eye pay, RCO, B-plan implementation, etc.

Again, thanks for proving my point.

Quote:

Our hotel language, though getting better, is not where we should be.

Yeah, while it's virtually meaningless, at least we have some now.

Quote:

Crew meals issue is piddly. A number of my friends at legacies won't even touch theirs. But then again, isn't this what per diem is for?

Piddly, but like I said earlier, all of the stuff you've posted adds up to a sub industry average contract.

My issue with crew meals is not about the money, it's about availability. There are many times that it is impossible to get a substantial meal, at any price, in our schedules.

Quote:

Parking is a minor annoyance.

Why don't you send me a check for the $10k + I've already spent on that "minor annoyance". In my previous 7 airlines, I've never paid a dime for parking, even in PHL, LGA and JFK.

Quote:

Here's where we do shine... I don't know if you use our Regular Plan for medical insurance, but it costs my family exactly 0 each month, and I know my max out of pocket expense is $2500 for the year should we encounter some major medical issues. My probie year, both my wife and I had medical issues, and $2500 was all we paid for out of pocket, and it included surgeries and treatments. How many legacies have literally free medical?

I do the reg plan also. I honestly don't know how the legacy insurance works nowadays. I do know that I never had the consistent issues I've had getting claims paid by our insurance before coming here. Even the crummy regionals I worked for had free insurance and actually paid for covered stuff without sixteen phone calls.

Another plus here is no PBS, but, the only reason we don't have it is because the company knows it would kill a lot of our productivity along with the flexibility. I can guarantee that had GK wanted it, we'd have had old SWApA pushing it like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Quote:

Do we have Southwest Express regional jets "exploring" our new markets? Nope, our scope still doesn't allow Mesa to fly regional jets as Southwest Express. I'm however very leery of the international codeshare. Speaking of, perhaps you should read a tad more into or ask our Delta brother/sister about the "industry-standard" joint ventures that outsource widebody flying to foreign carriers.

Like PBS, the ONLY reason we have the Section 1 language that we do is because GK doesn't need "SWExpress" mini jets flying all over the place. Yet. I guarantee that had he wanted it, SWApA and this pilot group would've agreed to it years ago. We're already giving it up little by little, as GK "needs" relief in certain areas.

Quote:

The point to my post is that if you're slinging feces all over the place and seeing what sticks, you're not really helping the cause of lifting the truly deficient parts of our contract up because you'll say things like our pay is not "industry standard" which will cause the vast majority of our brothers and sisters to roll our eyes and tune you out as evident by the TA2 vote, and yet you have some excellent points that we should all pay attention to but don't because of other stuff you say.

The facts, as proven again by you and ANG, are the facts.

We do not, and will probably never, have a contract that rivals a legacy contract.

I am really not sure why you guys have so much angst over me saying that, especially when you're supporting my argument so eloquently and in such detail. :eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76 (Post 2391869)

Megaslacker! ;)

In all seriousness, that's awesome. Hope the JA powers leave you alone too. Do share, how many days off is that?

You are dead wrong when it comes to our pay. I do agree that benefits, especially LTD/LOL could substantially improve and that is the reason why I voted NO.

Let me break it down again, but using relevant numbers and aircraft.

A topped out Delta 738 captain makes $265/hour. Let's have him credit 100 hours per month consistently for 12 months. That's $318,000/year.

Translated to SWAhili, that's $318,000/218.25 per TFP = 1,457 TFP or 121.42 TFP per month what you need to credit to make what a top-of-the-payscale 100 hours every month crediting Delta 738 captain makes. Now, I don't know how much you know about our new reserve being a 22-year veteran, but 121 TFP is often achieved not even picking up anything on any reserve, and we're talking bottom of the list.

Now... how many guys do you know that pick up and fly way more than 121 TFP in a month?

Stuck in a narrowbody for the career and aren't happy that you're falling behind your peers? Again, let's play with the topped out numbers. Delta B-777 captain is at $330/hour x 1200 hours a year is $396,000. Again, in SWAhili, using your $218.25 TFP, you need to fly 151.20 TFP average to make that. Now you're in my territory... that's about what I choose to fly in a month... 16-18 days or so with some ELITT and premium, likely substantially less days worked with your horsepower.

One other thing you need to ask yourself, what percentage of Delta captains consistently achieve 100 hours of credit per month all year long? All of them?

Yes, I get it, a B-777 captain at Delta doesn't work as much as you do, and it's not the proper comparison considering we don't fly widebodies, but it only goes to show you what it would take for you to make up the difference for you to feel less inadequate.

So, in order to help our own 84%'ers take you seriously, you need to realistically compare numbers, and really, you're not.

Here's where we DO lag, and this is what you should highlight if you're trying to actually make the 84%'ers think about what needs to change. Our LOL/LTD is lagging our peers substantially. This was actually THE biggest reason I voted NO on TA2. For a company that preaches "the Golden Rule," it's awfully hypocritical to just throw you out the way they do if you find yourself out on prolonged medical disability. THIS is where we lag our peers and THIS is what needs to improve.

Other reasons I voted NO include some weak language, and the company's ability to stall implementation of certain portions of our new without financial penalties. For example as piddly as it is, red-eye pay, RCO, B-plan implementation, etc.

Our hotel language, though getting better, is not where we should be.

Crew meals issue is piddly. A number of my friends at legacies won't even touch theirs. But then again, isn't this what per diem is for?

Parking is a minor annoyance.

Here's where we do shine... I don't know if you use our Regular Plan for medical insurance, but it costs my family exactly 0 each month, and I know my max out of pocket expense is $2500 for the year should we encounter some major medical issues. My probie year, both my wife and I had medical issues, and $2500 was all we paid for out of pocket, and it included surgeries and treatments. How many legacies have literally free medical?

Do we have Southwest Express regional jets "exploring" our new markets? Nope, our scope still doesn't allow Mesa to fly regional jets as Southwest Express. I'm however very leery of the international codeshare. Speaking of, perhaps you should read a tad more into or ask our Delta brother/sister about the "industry-standard" joint ventures that outsource widebody flying to foreign carriers.

The point to my post is that if you're slinging feces all over the place and seeing what sticks, you're not really helping the cause of lifting the truly deficient parts of our contract up because you'll say things like our pay is not "industry standard" which will cause the vast majority of our brothers and sisters to roll our eyes and tune you out as evident by the TA2 vote, and yet you have some excellent points that we should all pay attention to but don't because of other stuff you say.

Nice post. Slipkid definitely sends my eyes rolling. The earning potential here for flying a measly guppy is quite impressive when you really think about it. People like e6b and many others crediting in the 140 range puts them at the 200k mark as a 3rd year FO before profit sharing and 401k contribution.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton78 (Post 2391888)

What, exactly have I said that get's your eyes rolling?

RJS stated, in great detail, exactly what I've been saying.

I've never said that we can't earn good money at SW.

In this thread, entitled "will SWA ever rival legacy pay", I've stated that we will not, at least when comparing apples with apples. Others have already proven that for me.

Sure, we've got guys making $400k+, but have you ever taken a peek at their boards? My worst schedule at a commuter was a lot better than what those guys do. More power to them if they can deal with that lifestyle, but it's definitely not for everyone or even most of us.

Personally, I make damn good money for the amount of time I am physically at work, but it's still not even industry average, especially when block time is put into the mix.

Pay rate is just part of an industry standard contract, and ours is, once again, along with many other contractual issues, lagging the average.

Again, I am not sure why you guys have so much angst with these statements.....