|
Originally Posted by SlipKid
(Post 2391885)
How am I wrong? The numbers are there. In black and white.
To equal our peers in pay, your numbers show that we have to work more days and block substantially more hours. 121 tfp per month is at least 3-4 extra days of work, not to mention an extra commute. Admittedly, I don't know, or even care much about the reserve rules as they pertain to me, since I will never voluntarily sit it. For the sake of the junior guys, I am glad that we were able to at least partially fix reserve in the current contract. LOL... 16-18 days per month. Are you serious? I'm in the red just thinking about that. But back to our toybox, to each their own... I live in base, and I don't see anything fatiguing about picking up a day turn or an easy two day. The beauty of a choice. The only way a SW guy (other than E6B ;) ) can reliably make 150tfp per month without killing themselves is if they're able to get rid straight paying trips and replace them with premium flying. That is damn near impossible nowadays, and it's not for lack of trying. Net Zero is always zero, and people don't even take midweek Capt turns anymore. Forget about 2 or gasp, 3 days. It boils down to this: If I want more, I can work more. Not a bad thing, IMHO, but still doesn't make our contract rival a legacy. I'm not? Read your numbers again. They all prove that we need to work more to make industry level pay. And that's not even including all of the non pay related, sub industry average stuff that you describe below. My issue with crew meals is not about the money, it's about availability. There are many times that it is impossible to get a substantial meal, at any price, in our schedules. Why don't you send me a check for the $10k + I've already spent on that "minor annoyance". In my previous 7 airlines, I've never paid a dime for parking, even in PHL, LGA and JFK. I do the reg plan also. I honestly don't know how the legacy insurance works nowadays. I do know that I never had the consistent issues I've had getting claims paid by our insurance before coming here. Even the crummy regionals I worked for had free insurance and actually paid for covered stuff without sixteen phone calls. Another plus here is no PBS, but, the only reason we don't have it is because the company knows it would kill a lot of our productivity along with the flexibility. I can guarantee that had GK wanted it, we'd have had old SWApA pushing it like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Like PBS, the ONLY reason we have the Section 1 language that we do is because GK doesn't need "SWExpress" mini jets flying all over the place. Yet. I guarantee that had he wanted it, SWApA and this pilot group would've agreed to it years ago. We're already giving it up little by little, as GK "needs" relief in certain areas. The facts, as proven again by you and ANG, are the facts. We do not, and will probably never, have a contract that rivals a legacy contract. I am really not sure why you guys have so much angst over me saying that, especially when you're supporting my argument so eloquently and in such detail. :eek: What DOESN'T boil down to our individual choice is how our LOL/LTD works, and this is where you should scream at the top of your lungs. This is indeed where we lag. The reason I'm correcting you is because you've lived in the cocoon over the past 22 years, and it sadly shows. You seem to be heavily suffering from the "grass is greener" syndrome without realizing that it's likely due to a different brand of manure. |
What DOESN'T boil down to our individual choice is how our LOL/LTD works, and this is where you should scream at the top of your lungs. This is indeed where we lag.
How does the LOL/LTD work at SWA? Thanks |
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
(Post 2391905)
Actually, we work less days, we may or may not block more hours - depending on what you do. My legacy counterparts "enjoy" 24-30 hour layovers, I don't. My best was a 21 hour Cabo layover, but then again, I work ELITT. My legacy buds work 15-16 days to get 82-83 hours of pay, or in SWAhili, that's 111-112 TFP. Hell, that was my original line, but working 14 days. What do you value more - time off at home or 24 hour layovers?
You should know before throwing out statements like your did. We compared a 100 hour crediting Delta 738 captain to a reserve, low man on the totem pole Southwest captain. Again, what percentage of Delta 738 captains credit 100 hours per month? Industry standard? Then you'd probably hate reserve at your "industry standard" legacy because they're all 18 days. Now try commuting to NYC as a Delta reserve captain and covering LGA/JFK/EWR at once. There is a reason why 6000 guys said hard pass! But back to our toybox, to each their own... I live in base, and I don't see anything fatiguing about picking up a day turn or an easy two day. The beauty of a choice. Funny you should say NetZero always being zero. I've consistently been able to reduce my straight-time flying using ELITT and catching NetZero being 1 or 2, most recent time being last night. Set up your LineTuner to alert you when what you want becomes available. True you can work more, but your legacy counterpart may not have that option either due to seniority or contractual limits. I have read my numbers, and if you're a commuter as you've mentioned, perhaps you should review yours. I used 100 hour credit at Delta. Also, it would behoove you to look at how many days are they away from home and compare them to us. Again, personal preference... you want to have 24-30 hour layovers and be gone from home 16 days a month, or you want 14 hour layovers and be gone 13 days? What are those 2-3 extra days at home worth to you? Why is it impossible? You're the captain. If you or your crew need to eat, sack up and don't push until you get your nutrition. Maybe the company will get the message that perhaps crew meals aren't such a bad idea... Then how can you claim you want "industry standard" when you don't even know how legacy insurance works or what they pay for theirs? Assume it's equivalent to our ChoicePlus for a family of 4. Go ahead and add that to your calculations, then add their max out of pocket costs. And the reason why you never had to deal with this at regionals is because sometime between your regional airline career and your 22 year tenure at Southwest, we had a liberal activist POTUS who, along with congressional Democrats brought us the "Affordable" Care Act, and we happen to be one of the few places still offering "regular" plan. So, your $10k for parking over the 22 year career vs. how much for medical insurance in just the past few years? Yes, and it would also kill premium flying, it would also kill our vacation because now you'd get a pre-award credit for your vacation and have the company build you a schedule around your blocked off days, so your 7 day vacation would literally be... 7 days. BTW... have you compared our vacation with our legacy counterparts? Are you sure you want "industry standard?" During the regional jet bonanza in the early 2000's, the company didn't want it. Be glad that it never came here. I personally like that we don't outsource our work to other airlines. In some ways, we have a contract that blows away legacy contracts. In other ways, we lag the legacies. Which one is more important to you is highly subjective... I value earnings over time spent away from home. Personally, I'd rather work 14 days a month and earn what a legacy guy earns in 16. If I choose to work 16 days, I'll make substantially more than my legacy counterpart. Again, boils down to your individual choice... What DOESN'T boil down to our individual choice is how our LOL/LTD works, and this is where you should scream at the top of your lungs. This is indeed where we lag. The reason I'm correcting you is because you've lived in the cocoon over the past 22 years, and it sadly shows. http://i.imgur.com/66QDK.gif Re read what you and ANG wrote. Then re read what I wrote. Please. We are saying essentially the same thing. :eek: Using YOUR numbers, I would have to work substantially more than I do currently to earn what a DAL guy of similar tenure does. I'd love it if a 20+ year DAL guy would chime in with some real world numbers. Enjoy your essentially unchanged, industry lagging contract, because, I assure you, if the last 2 decades are any indication, it is not likely get much better with even more age. Re: reserve. Again, I don't sit it, have no plans to sit it, and won't sit it. Ever. Hence, I have zero interest in the contractual minutiae therein. As for the food comment. There are lots of times that there is simply no food available at any price. Even though it's ridiculous to even be put in that situation, I have, and will again, delay flights to ensure that the entire crew is fed, but there has to be food available to do so. WRT linetuner, ELITT and net zero. I practically live on ELITT during the summer months nowadays, so I am painfully aware of how it all works, and doesn't. My RapidClick app has carpal tunnel from hitting refresh, incessantly, for the last few months. ;) What used to take an hour or so on the 25th now takes weeks, if I can do it at all. I've been a LT user since the beta days and then when it was a paid for app. These days, LT is usually worthless for net zero, IME. By the time it gets around to sending the text, netzero is back to 0, every single time. Not once since LT has been back in use, have I gotten the text indicating a positive NZ, immediately logged onto CWA on my phone, and net zero not be back at zero. The only times I've been able to actually trade down in the last few months were when I was actually on ELITT when it went to a plus 1. About 5 minutes later, I'd get the LT notification. I eventually got to -4DC in May and June, but I am still stuck at (a very hard won) -3 for July. LT is good for notifying you of a trip on a specific day though. |
Slip, I don't have the time or energy for this anymore. As they say there is more than one way to skin a cat.
We are awarded more time off. We have the ability to be lazy, make a good salary and I have the ability to be the highest paid pilot in the industry. Tell me another place you can do that? Just out of curiosity...you were hired here when the other airlines were hiring like gang busters. your resentment for the company is very apparent; why did you come here or is the answer obvious? |
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
(Post 2391905)
Actually, we work less days, we may or may not block more hours - depending on what you do. My legacy counterparts "enjoy" 24-30 hour layovers, I don't. My best was a 21 hour Cabo layover, but then again, I work ELITT. My legacy buds work 15-16 days to get 82-83 hours of pay, or in SWAhili, that's 111-112 TFP. Hell, that was my original line, but working 14 days. What do you value more - time off at home or 24 hour layovers?
You should know before throwing out statements like your did. We compared a 100 hour crediting Delta 738 captain to a reserve, low man on the totem pole Southwest captain. Again, what percentage of Delta 738 captains credit 100 hours per month? Industry standard? Then you'd probably hate reserve at your "industry standard" legacy because they're all 18 days. Now try commuting to NYC as a Delta reserve captain and covering LGA/JFK/EWR at once. There is a reason why 6000 guys said hard pass! But back to our toybox, to each their own... I live in base, and I don't see anything fatiguing about picking up a day turn or an easy two day. The beauty of a choice. Funny you should say NetZero always being zero. I've consistently been able to reduce my straight-time flying using ELITT and catching NetZero being 1 or 2, most recent time being last night. Set up your LineTuner to alert you when what you want becomes available. True you can work more, but your legacy counterpart may not have that option either due to seniority or contractual limits. I have read my numbers, and if you're a commuter as you've mentioned, perhaps you should review yours. I used 100 hour credit at Delta. Also, it would behoove you to look at how many days are they away from home and compare them to us. Again, personal preference... you want to have 24-30 hour layovers and be gone from home 16 days a month, or you want 14 hour layovers and be gone 13 days? What are those 2-3 extra days at home worth to you? Why is it impossible? You're the captain. If you or your crew need to eat, sack up and don't push until you get your nutrition. Maybe the company will get the message that perhaps crew meals aren't such a bad idea... Then how can you claim you want "industry standard" when you don't even know how legacy insurance works or what they pay for theirs? Assume it's equivalent to our ChoicePlus for a family of 4. Go ahead and add that to your calculations, then add their max out of pocket costs. And the reason why you never had to deal with this at regionals is because sometime between your regional airline career and your 22 year tenure at Southwest, we had a liberal activist POTUS who, along with congressional Democrats brought us the "Affordable" Care Act, and we happen to be one of the few places still offering "regular" plan. So, your $10k for parking over the 22 year career vs. how much for medical insurance in just the past few years? Yes, and it would also kill premium flying, it would also kill our vacation because now you'd get a pre-award credit for your vacation and have the company build you a schedule around your blocked off days, so your 7 day vacation would literally be... 7 days. BTW... have you compared our vacation with our legacy counterparts? Are you sure you want "industry standard?" During the regional jet bonanza in the early 2000's, the company didn't want it. Be glad that it never came here. I personally like that we don't outsource our work to other airlines. In some ways, we have a contract that blows away legacy contracts. In other ways, we lag the legacies. Which one is more important to you is highly subjective... I value earnings over time spent away from home. Personally, I'd rather work 14 days a month and earn what a legacy guy earns in 16. If I choose to work 16 days, I'll make substantially more than my legacy counterpart. Again, boils down to your individual choice... What DOESN'T boil down to our individual choice is how our LOL/LTD works, and this is where you should scream at the top of your lungs. This is indeed where we lag. The reason I'm correcting you is because you've lived in the cocoon over the past 22 years, and it sadly shows. You seem to be heavily suffering from the "grass is greener" syndrome without realizing that it's likely due to a different brand of manure. You are my new personal hero. What this guy says!!! |
That escalated quickly. Somewhere in there I'm pretty sure I saw a trident thrown across the room.
Lots of variables being thrown in here, apples to oranges comments, and so forth. Let me try to narrow it down. Assuming I work a solid 13 days a month, and cherish my days off (i.e., not picking up extra flying), can SWA get close enough to legacy pay that it doesn't matter? If not, do you think contract 2020 may balance the playing field? And, for all the marbles, if you were job searching today, would you still want to go SWA or elsewhere? |
Originally Posted by ANGFlight81
(Post 2391949)
Slip, I don't have the time or energy for this anymore. As they say there is more than one way to skin a cat.
We are awarded more time off. We have the ability to be lazy, make a good salary and I have the ability to be the highest paid pilot in the industry. Tell me another place you can do that? Just out of curiosity...you were hired here when the other airlines were hiring like gang busters. your resentment for the company is very apparent; why did you come here or is the answer obvious? I have zero, as in NO resentment towards SWA. The company, overall, has been good to me, and I honestly wouldn't trade the way my career played out, particularly post 9/11, but that was sheer luck. The company does what it's supposed to, which is to get us to work as much as they can for as cheaply as possible. My heartburn is and has always been with the union that enabled and convinced the pilot group to go along with the company's agenda, and the pilot group that accepted every concession placed before it, for decades. Why are you here? Surely the big guys are hiring, "or is the reason obvious"? ;) |
Originally Posted by Sqwk1200
(Post 2391990)
That escalated quickly. Somewhere in there I'm pretty sure I saw a trident thrown across the room.
Lots of variables being thrown in here, apples to oranges comments, and so forth. Let me try to narrow it down. Assuming I work a solid 13 days a month, and cherish my days off (i.e., not picking up extra flying), can SWA get close enough to legacy pay that it doesn't matter? If not, do you think contract 2020 may balance the playing field? And, for all the marbles, if you were job searching today, would you still want to go SWA or elsewhere? This is not dealing with premium pay or open time, just changing around what you were awarded in your monthly line. Others can answer the job search question. Too many variables. |
Originally Posted by Sqwk1200
(Post 2391990)
That escalated quickly. Somewhere in there I'm pretty sure I saw a trident thrown across the room.
Lots of variables being thrown in here, apples to oranges comments, and so forth. Let me try to narrow it down. Assuming I work a solid 13 days a month, and cherish my days off (i.e., not picking up extra flying), can SWA get close enough to legacy pay that it doesn't matter? If not, do you think contract 2020 may balance the playing field? And, for all the marbles, if you were job searching today, would you still want to go SWA or elsewhere? Nice anchorman reference. Question 1 - I hate this answer, but it depends. If you fly your 12 day line, you will probably credit around 100 a month with some high months being around 120 and some low around 90-95. The lines themselves as they are awarded are usually in the high 90's. I would say that yes, it is around legacy pay, at least in the same ballpark. HOWEVER, you just can't compare SWA to a legacy. It is why this thread is so effing long. We do so much stuff differently, it is a completely different type of flying altogether (cue joke). Our trip trade, pay, and everything is all based around encouraging pilots to go to work flying airplanes. Legacy contracts are written to pay pilots to do as little as possible while enjoying many things that employers normally provide for employees like parking, uniforms, and food. If I had to do it all over again, tough to say. I am genuinely glad I ended up here. The only place that I have actual doubts about and was highly considering reapplying to when the union fell apart after TA1 is FedEx. In my opinion, they have the full ball of wax. They have the pay AND the great work rules. In the end, though, I stuck it out and have no regrets. As far as working for a legacy pax carrier, I don't think I would be as happy as I am here, but tough to say since I don't work for one. I have flown heavy airplanes to different continents and that doesn't really matter to me anymore. I am good with flying a narrowbody to the burghs and viles of America. |
Originally Posted by e6bpilot
(Post 2392015)
Nice anchorman reference.
Question 1 - I hate this answer, but it depends. If you fly your 12 day line, you will probably credit around 100 a month with some high months being around 120 and some low around 90-95. The lines themselves as they are awarded are usually in the high 90's. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:40 AM. |
User Alert System provided by
Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) -
vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands