Did you seriously not read what was just posted about what happen to Spirit? Yes we can talk, collaborate, and educate. Just not on a public forum!! Inappropriate stuff had already been posted and recorded. If the time comes, the company will use it against the pilots.

People like you are what dooms us to failure!

Re-posted for your "Education"

That's right; because encouraging someone to not pick up open time (and harassing those who do) and encouraging work slow downs are EXACTLY the same as educating people of things like:

1) the President does NOT have the power to prevent us from striking,

and 2) a strike authorization vote has nothing to do with actually striking and can be a powerful message and tool used by us as a collective.

You got me, they're totally one and the same.

"Everybody talk...just do it in secret."

I couldn’t believe it when I flew with a guy recently that said exactly this. I said I am a hard no unless we get the LTD, STD and the like fixed AND paid for by the company like our peers. He said, but what are you going to give up to get this? I said why do we have to give up anything? Sheesh.


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Embrace it, because that's exactly how the vast majority of your brethren here think, and they vote accordingly. :confused:

I ain’t giving up ****.

GDO, TGDO, STC, DTC restrictions on trading, exports, things like that. Perfectly willing to horse-trade those “hard-won gains.”

My guess is that the Spirit pilots who advocated for illegal concerted job actions in violation of the RLA's status quo provisions did so not because they knowingly intended to violate the law but because they were ignorant of the RLA and case law surrounding the types of actions they engaged in and because their union failed to fully educate them on the RLA, especially in the context of advocating for illegal job actions and harassing those who chose to maintain the status quo.

Regardless of the reason, the Spirit pilots who pushed for activities like not picking up open time and throwing spears at those who did not only demonstrated their ignorance of the RLA and/or a lack of appreciation for the consequences of doing those sorts of things in a RLA environment prior to a release to self help, but most importantly, robbed themselves of leverage and ceded bargaining power to the company.

Too bad they didn't understand the RLA before they did what they did.

Maybe if they had read posts like the ones on this thread before they shot themselves in the foot, they would have thought twice and their pilot group would have secured further gains.

Discussing the legal framework of the RLA and what that means for airline pilot group negotiations is not only not illegal, but I'd argue that it's also unwise if, for no other reason, than to avoid situations like the ones Spirit pilots found themselves in. I'd also argue that it's unwise to allow ideas to stand unchallenged like:

1) The President will never allow us to strike.
2) The mediator will just put us on ice forever.
3) The government might possibly, after a long, drawn-out process shut down a strike and that means utilizing the tools of the RLA is therefore pointless.
4) The RLA is skewed against labor.
5) Mediation and arbitration are the same thing or mediation is arbitration and arbitration is mediation.
6) The RLA process inevitably ends up in binding arbitration.
7) Entering mediation is a bad thing after a good faith, reasonable effort to come to terms in direct negotiations.

All of the above ideas cause pilot groups to believe that they lack power under the law and are at a disadvantage versus industry in obtaining their worth in negotiations. Each of the above ideas is false and demonstrably so. Shooting down the above myths with actual facts is, I believe, valuable.

The fact that the above ideas are false is absolutely no secret to management and their hired legal consultants like FordHarrison. None of the above would surprise or shock an attorney working for the side of management. None of this is news to anyone participating in negotiations on management's side. I'm quite sure they love the fact that we are still confused on the most basic of RLA issues.

The sad thing is that much of the above is news to many, if not most, pilots. Ignorance is what dooms us, not discussing the entirely legal tools available to us under the RLA.