WHACKMASTER

Trying to? LMFAO. How about already successfully has.

Profane Kahuna

and the continued excuses and management talking points from some pilots are why we have lagging contracts

waterskisabersw

Uh, this is not at all how the RLA works. The mediator, by definition does not "let" anything happen or prevent anything. A mediator is just that, a mediator. They are there at the request of one or both sides to help guide and temper the negotiations.

They can put negotiations on "ice", but if the sides want to meet anyway, they can. There's nothing binding about mediation, even their one true function, which is to declare an impasse, because that can be overruled to a certain extent by congress and the president.

The only thing that matters when trying to make negotiations productive is the logic and reason behind your argument. And there are MULTIPLE arguments for widebody pay rates. We can argue:

1: we're competing for the same 5k applicants that the legacies are competing for. Combined, the big 4 have announced plans to hire more than 5k this year alone. Therefore, we need pay to be equivalent with the legacies, who do happen to have widebody pay, otherwise, we may be the ones who are left with the hiring deficit.

2: widebody pay is largely based on potential revenue generation. First off, this is an antiquated, and I would even say irrelevant, metric with modern contracts, because of one simple contractual benefit: rigs. Widebody pilots at legacies do not block the same number as their pay check. For that matter, neither do we. But even if we take potential revenue generation per pilot at face value, the POTENTIAL for revenue generation is much higher for two pilots flying 9 flights on a 3 day is higher than the three (or four) pilots flying a widebody over the pond and back over a 3 day trip. Two key factors that people always forget in this calculation are that it's the POTENTIAL for revenue generation and the additional pilot usually required for widebody ops. Fare cost is irrelevant in this argument. Should a Norwegian 787 pilot make less than a United 787 pilot? Or for that matter, should a Frontier pilot make less than a SWA pilot? It's purely butts in seats and the amount of flying you do.

3: the job is functionally the same no matter the size of the airplane, and, in fact, SWA already has an established history of paying a higher rate for a much smaller airplane. The 200/500 were 30% smaller than the 800, with the larger airplane being the controlling rate. That same ratio, applied to an 800 the opposite way, equate to it being ok for the 800 and an airplane with with 250 seats to be on the same pay rate, again with the larger airplane being the controlling rate.

Bottom line, you get what you negotiate. The mediator and the company can think whatever they want. The proof will be in the pudding if we're unable to adequately attract candidates. If we don't get a contract or get put on "ice", oh well. We will get a contract or get off ice eventually. It's up to our members and their elected representatives to decide just how long we're willing to wait, for how much of a raise we're willing to hold out for, and how much we can get to compensate us for the fact that we had to wait. This all comes with the caveat that waiting does have inherent risks and consequences both for us and the company. Negotiating higher rates can also drive a change in the airline's business model. It is up to the collective bargaining agent, the company, and the membership to determine if a rate (or overall contract) will change the business model, and to decide as to whether or not the risk of any potential model changes are worth whatever item(s) that have been negotiated.

And for the love of GOD can we please stop with this notion that we can get a contract imposed on us with binding arbitration?! Binding arbitration can ONLY be imposed if BOTH sides agree to submit to it. I'm sure I won't be the only person who will pull out my pitchfork if ANYBODY in swapa votes to submit to binding arbitration.

In the end, the only thing that matters is that you get what you negotiate and agree to. It is up to the membership, and the membership alone, to decide what they're willing to vote to accept.

Zman81

“Strikes, lock-outs, and other forms of self help in these industries may occur only after the NMB has determined that further mediation would not be successful and after a cooling-off period of 30 days following NMB release from mediation.”

“
the NMB does have the authority to dictate when the parties will meet, for how long they will meet, and when meetings will be recessed.“

https://nmb.gov/NMB_Application/inde...-overview-faq/


Educate yourself before making it sound like a meditator doesn’t control the show!

waterskisabersw

The MEDIATOR does not release the parties to self help. The mediation BOARD releases the parties, and can be overridden, for a short period.

With regards to the NMB (again, not the mediator), they can indeed dictate the meetings times/lack thereof, for any meetings that are conducted under the auspices of meditation. They cannot prevent a mutual decisions of the parties to meet in addition to or in lieu of said mediated meetings.

The mediator mediates and can make a recommendation to the board to release the parties. That's it. There's nothing about "not letting demands fly", "throwing you on ice for x number of days", or a "binding arbitration". Even your statement that the mediator can release the parties is false, since that falls on the 3 members of the National Mediation Board.

Source: years of working in SPCs, NCs, Management, and the actual language of the RLA, not an overview FAQ.

The mediator themselves has very little actual power other than making recommendations to the board (which then have to be voted on, and can be overridden for a period of time).

Zman81

who picks the mediator? Who does the mediator work for ?

“What kind of background or experience do the NMB mediators have?
A: NMB mediators typically come from either Union or Company backgrounds and have extensive labor relations experience in either the rail or airline industries. Mediator biographies may be found on the NMB web site.”


its right there in the Q&A!!!

waterskisabersw

Irrelevant.

In any case, sorry that I'm trying to drag you kicking and screaming into trying to value yourself in the same league as your peers. I don't know how long you've been here (or if you're swa even), how you've voted in the past, or what your background is, but I will say that your logic and reasoning is sadly similar to every company apologist/fervent yessie I've flown with here. Happy for whatever gains, but believe that you got everything you could get.

Here's a hint: Valencia happened right after SWAPA polling regarding willingness to strike. Just WHY do you think Casey, Jon, etc all said they got as much as they could? It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the results of that polling (I have some ocean front property to sell you in Kansas).

It doesn't matter that you believe in the mystical power of the mediator. If you've been here long enough, you know that SWAPA agrees with my interpretation of the mediators roll, as is evidenced by a long piece they put out on the matter in an NP/RP sometime in early 2016.

So if SS4M for you, you apparently haven't been listening to what they're actually saying.

Zman81

I been here a while and this is my 3rd airline. I have family and friends that work as pilots in other legacies/cargo. With that being said I truly hope 100% that we get everything that everyone wishes for. But I have seen this dance before and heard it from family and friends at their carriers. I don’t hold my breath for anything that is out of the ordinary with respective contract gains. I voted No on TA1 FYI no B fund!

Lewbronski

Sounds like you might work for management. This kind of thinking regarding the RLA process contributes to us being willing to accept lagging contracts. It's some truth mixed and twisted with a lot more baloney and obfuscation.

The NMB is the executive agency charged by Congress with the task of executing the charter of the RLA: to "avoid any interruption to commerce or to the operation of any carrier engaged therein", or as the NMB put it in their 2021 report to Congress, to facilitate "harmonious labor-management relations within two of the nation’s key transportation sectors: railroads and airlines."

First, off the bat. An NMB mediator can NEVER force us into arbitration or to accept an arbitrated agreement. That can never happen involuntarily. That can only happen if BOTH sides agree to arbitration. And then, that can only happen after years of failed mediation under the purview of the NMB after the NMB declares an impasse. If the pilots of SWAPA ever agreed to arbitration, especially at that moment when our leverage would be near to reaching a crescendo, we would be absolute fools. I wouldn't put it past us.

An NMB mediator, once either party files for mediation and a mediator has been assigned to the dispute, does have the power to control the pace of negotiations. But only to an extent. His or her power is not unlimited. It's important to also understand that nothing the mediator says or does regarding the scheduling of negotiation sessions stops labor and management from meeting on their own outside of mediated sessions. We need to recognize why a mediator is given the limited ability to control (for a time) the pace of negotiations. What's the point?

So, yes, mediators can "let a case sit as a mediation tactic." Mediators can also lie to our faces about putting us "on ice" (in the words of the court, use "blarney" or "hoomalimali") as a "ploy" or "a tactic to spur negotiations." The mediator's job is to get either side - they don't really care which side - to fold, to capitulate - to agree to a settlement as quickly as possible so as to preclude the possibility of an interruption of commerce. That's their job. So they will apply pressure to one or both sides to create the impression that bad consequences are in the offing if they don't settle. Like every other human, they like to do their job as efficiently and with as little effort as possible. These sorts of NMB pressure-inducing tactics are typically more effective on the side that has a poorer understanding of the RLA process and how the game is played. That side, especially at SWA, is almost always labor. Hence, NMB mediators generally find it easier to do their job by applying pressure on the side of labor (for example: "You are going on ice FOREVER!!!! and not getting your bonus or pay raise any time in the next five to ten years if you don't give up your ridiculous demand of wide body pay for flying 737's. You wanna go tell your membership they're not buying any new toys until 2030?")

But can a mediator actually delay our negotiations forever? Once we enter mediation, are we the plaything of the mediator until hell freezes over?

No, we're not. Congress set up the RLA to create a purposefully long and drawn-out process so that the chances of an interruption to commerce are minimized. But if the mediator could keep us in mediation forever or for an interminably long period of time, the mediator would have the power to strip both labor and management of their right (that's what the courts call it) to self-help. How long can the mediator keep us in mediation. It's a gray area. It's not spelled out in the RLA. But the courts give us some clues. For example:

So, we must look to history to give us our guide. That's an entirely separate and very long and nuanced discussion in terms of how long airline (and to a lesser extent for us, railroad) labor disputes have spent in mediation before an impasse was declared, but we can safely say that mediation will last at least a period of three years before a mediator might consider declaring an impasse. It's not a simple black and white discussion because, for example, when lawsuits are filed while in mediation, the courts have viewed that in the past as stopping the mediation clock:

So, the discussion about what the NMB and NMB mediators can and can't really do is far more in-depth than Zman81 would have you believe. It is to management's advantage for labor to believe the sorts of things Zman81 is attempting to convince us of. Fortunately, they're not really true - especially not in the distorted way Zman81 is communicating them.

Also, it's important to note that neither SWAPA nor SWA have filed for mediation. Therefore, the timer hasn't even begun ticking on our dispute yet. That's very important to understand. We don't even begin to take the first step toward accruing leverage under the RLA until mediation begins.

However, that doesn't mean we don't have leverage outside of the RLA (like pickets) to create the impression among the public who have no idea how the RLA works that SWA pilots might be near a work stoppage. That sort of thing might create a book-away effect among our passengers if they believe SWA pilots might walk off the job. To be clear, though, and management 100% understands this, SWA pilots can never legally strike until the entire RLA process plays. That takes years. And we really haven't even started the clock on that process yet. IMO, unless SWAPA believes we have the possibility of scoring a major win pretty quickly via leverage created by pickets or the idea of a pilot shortage or something else, we are depriving ourselves of beginning the path toward the threat of real leverage under the RLA each day we have not filed for mediation.

waterskisabersw

EXACTLY. Words matter. A lot.

Definition of "ordinary": "with no special or distinctive features; normal."

There's another thread I commented on about SWA exceptionalism. Are we exceptional or not? What other airline has the financial history of SWA? What other airline has more productive pilots? What other airline prides itself on NOT being ordinary, or on being, perhaps, Nuts? We are NOT ordinary. We are by definition, as an airline, EXTRAordinary.

If the pilots of southwest are as extraordinary as our company is, then we should never be satisfied by something that isn't "out of the ordinary". If we don't deserve industry leading CAREER earnings, protections, and quality of life, then we are literally funding the extraordinary nature of our airline.

I expect more, because I do more. Period.

Maybe we should change the name of our union then. SAPA: Subordinary Airline Pilot's Association. Sorry skywest, you probably have a trademark or something.