Contract Expectations
 

Am I the only one that gets more annoyed every time one of the regionals announces a new contract with high pay rates? Only because I feel like the rates that will be presented to us wont even come close to matching it. Hell even a 50% raise for the first couple year guys would still be less than the regional captains are making.

Our rates need to start at $160 for first year guys and go way up from there. Unfortunately I don't see that happening and the contract will get voted in by all of the 15+ year guys making serious bucks and not caring that the new guys are actually giving up a lot of money to come here. Which means they wont do it and we wont be able to fill classes.

No. You’re not the only one.

I agree but what annoys me more is all the guys say " yeah but they have PBS or they're a regional etc.
who cares they make way more than we do and attitude like that are why WN or other majors can offer less.
who cares what they have or don't what matters is what we want and deserve.

Guessing yr 1 pay will be in the 115-120 tfp range. Our yr 1-5 already lags OAL’s so will need to come up substantially.

I think the regionals are at a breaking point. They’re being funded by the legacies and there’s no reason to keep paying obscene salaries and bonuses when you can just pay them legacy rates and start in a RJ and work up.

The days of cheap subcontractor’s are over. Look for the legacies to start bringing it in house….would be good for both sides IMO.

This. Let’s not forget that prior to about 1995 the legacies flew:
DC9-30 with 100 seats
Fokker 28 with 65 seats
Fokker 100 with 90 seats
737-200 with 100 seats

There was a time when there were no regionals, but rather a collection of commuters flying 19-37 seat turboprops that fed the hub. The idea was incremental revenue. A few people from Altoona, and a few from Beckley, and a few from Jamestown… bring them all to Pittsburgh and fill up a 737 to Orlando. It wasn’t until the ALPA foolishly allowed RJs to fall outside of scope that suddenly you have highly capable jets that could bypass hubs, or raid competitor hubs operating in big markets at high frequency. It was BS then and it’s BS now. Bring the flying back to the mainline and NEVER make that mistake again. Scope is sacrosanct.

Amen! It torques me off to no end how uneducated so many in our pilot group are about what you wrote about above.

Case in point, when discussing the A220-300 and how we went with the MAX7 instead, I’ve had several FOs comment, “Good, I didn’t want to fly an RJ anyway”. That “RJ” has the same capacity as the majority of airplanes in our fleet and even greater range, not to mention a FAR nicer cockpit.

Talk about the ultimate facepalm moment. Not surprisingly they all were on their first airline gig at SWA.

I got similar comments from the left seat. I tried to tell them that thing could carry 140 pax from ISP to BUR nonstop without runway issues on either end, but they still thought it was an RJ and nothing I said was going to change their minds.

The absolute WORST comment I got though was from a former single seat fighter pilot who said that military pilots shouldn’t have to fly the “RJ” and should be given some kind of superseniority when hired and fly the 737 - out of seniority if necessary - if we got that type. He was serious!! WTF?!

The same guy asked what would happen if an A220 FO wanted to upgrade to 737 captain with no 737 experience.

I was like… “uh…he bids it, he is awarded it, and he goes to school?”

He told me that couldn’t happen. You had to be a 737 copilot before you could upgrade on a 737.

I attempted to reason with him by explaining that at the legacies there are lots of times when an FO might never have flown a type before upgrading to Captain on it. He told me I was wrong and that couldn’t happen. Mind you this is the one and only airline he has ever worked for and has apparently never had communication with a pilot from any other airline…? 🙄

You just described the crux of so many problems at this airline. The same mentality was prevalent about the -300 around that little marriage “thing” over a decade ago.

My absolute favorite bag tag has been “Not in the Air Force until I got here”. Dip$7!t$… 🙄

And I’m willing to bet that there is far more cluelessness in the left seat than the right about what is accepted as normal and common practice in the 121 world.

I’m not trying to sound anti military. I honestly believe that classes in airline history and airline labor relations should be required prior to attending Indoc at any major airline. As a profession we need to do a better job of learning from our collective history. Those would benefit ANYONE who is new to the profession regardless of their background. The reality is that the generation who lived through turboprops, pay for training, Gulfstream international type schemes (pay to sit in the right seat), B scales, is getting old. The young folks joining the company now may have taken their first flying lessons POST 9/11!!! They may never have flown anything with steam gauges. They may never have flown an airliner without an autopilot or FMS. They may not know the history of the RJ and why it was so damaging to our profession.

Airline pilots do a poor job of indoctrinating our young because we just assume they did the same thing to get here that we did. Well, it should come as no surprise that none of our new hires these days flew cancelled checks in clapped out Barons in the middle of the night. Times change and with them so do perceptions. We all view this job through the lens of our own past experience. We have to figure out a way to share that history with our new hires without sounding like we’re preaching to them about the glory days.

I agree with everything you're saying. When it comes down to it though regarding the contract, whether or not the regionals should exist at all doesn't matter. Right now they do and our new hires and first couple year guys should not be seeing the pilots at those regionals that they just left making significantly more than them.

I have a class date of 12/27 and am currently a regional CRJ captain making pretty good money. Still seems crazy to me. In the long run of my career I know it’ll be worth the switch, can’t wait to work for SWA. Realistically when do people feel a new contract may be ready?

Completely agree. A regional lifer I know from a past life was bragging that he makes more than me with his check airman override etc. I’m happy for him, but from a recruiting perspective that is just terrible for us.

reminds me of when WN started letting FOs be classroom instructors. The cpt said no one should be an instructor without being a cpt first. I said a lot of FOs here have been cpts before southwest. He said not on a 737. I said I bet a few have been. He then yelled not a on a southwest 737! He definitely had me there.
btw I wish I had a baron to fly those cancelled checks in. All I got was a 172, sometimes 210 and if lucky a senica.

Meanwhile we have TWU ground instructors that have never had a 121 job or a transport category type rating.

All speculation: 12-24 months. The economic uncertainty is growing. The company only benefits to drag this out. Coming off of two very strong quarters, why not wait to see what happens over the next 3-9 months and perhaps reclaim some negotiating leverage? They will still fill class seats regardless of our incredibly substandard year 1-5 pay (you will make $200k less here than the legacies year 1-5) because regional pilots still want to move up to the "big leagues" (understandably), mil guys are still separating/retiring, etc.

Nobody wants to go first because they either overpay or they get passed immediately by competitors. Hot take, the regionals are NOT dead. Yes these new contracts are stupid expensive but once the big 4 drop new contracts, it will still be cheap labor. The hub and spoke model relies very heavily on bringing in people from the small markets, this is why the codeshares are willing to pay it. 24 months from now, these regional contracts will still be a fraction of mainline rates.

My pay expectations:

Current converted to hours:

12 yrs CA: $274.03
12 yrs FO: $191.81 (70% of CA)
05 yrs FO: $164.55 (86% of max FO)
01 yrs FO: $84.52 (44% of max FO)

In the year 2000, before all the CONCESSIONARY CONTRACTS, the going rate for a 737 classic Captain at max pay was around $226 per hour. Adjusted for inflation (Source BLS: CPI Index) is $399.

New Rates:

12 yrs CA: $399
12 yrs FO: $279.30
05 yrs FO: $240.20
01 yrs FO: $122.90

Now keep in mind, these rates are only reclaiming the concessions we gave up. This does NOT include a single pay raise or account for the fact that we are flying planes with 30-50 more seats. If we vote yes on anything less than this, we are still taking a massive paycut. Demand what you are worth!

Somebody really should tell these guys that Southwest doesn't build 737s, beyond un-checking things on the options list.

Several previous Boeing drivers in my newhire class in 2015. Many were 737 and even 747 drivers.

Please write your Rep and tell them this is your concern. It's a valid one imho

Talking about military guys (and coming from a former enlisted man BTW so no accusations of being anti-military) and the whole "we fighter types shouldn't ever have to fly an RJ etc because its demeaning" or whatever.....one of my funniest memories was back in the early 2000s when USAF time and $0.75 would get you a cup of coffee...watching a single seat military type trying to fly a VOR approach with a PT in the Jetstream by hand. I should have charged ACA $50/hr for flight instruction.

Or any kind of free-form visual approach...

Contract Expectations
 

I've never seen such a deer-in-the-headlights look as when we went into Sarasota after the tower closed. The captain, who went straight from USAF to Southwest, said he had literally never landed without an operating control tower. I was shocked.

lol...and that's our wheel-house, coming from 135

I took my first flying lessons after 9/11, but I had a captain at my regional recommend Flying the Line and Hard Landing. They ought to be required reading for any airline pilot. As should a class on the RLA and airline contracts. ALPA should write another volume to bring us at least until just before regional wages started to rise in 2015.

Thats a fantastic idea as the first two books you mention were excellent. I still have them in storage. If you write them with that suggestion, please tell them to go stroke their mustaches and don’t even think about trying to come on property here.

I love flying a VISUAL. Nervous, delicate captains: " you want the vorloc?"
I'm good, if you want it knock yourself out. I guess i can't blame them too much. Maybe some of my predecessors have startled them.

Only took two pages to get to the military bashing… please continue.., 🤙

fwiw… hard no on anything that doesn’t restore us as the most highly paid narrow bodied pilots plus gains in ltd/life insurance etc… willing to go all the way to make sure the contract is re written the right way

Contract Expectations
 

Yup. The insecurity displayed on this page is real and more disturbing than their supposed anecdotes. Funny thing, I’ve never had an issue with anyone here regardless of their backgrounds.

Hahaha. Love it. My favorite is handing the FO my can of water (literally), looking them in the eye and asking them to “hold my beer”, then simultaneously kicking Goerge off and subsequently turning even the FD off on my side.

For all the complaints about the Guppy, she at least hand-flies nicely, especially the Game Changers and MAX8’s.

Then you’re either full of excrement, have a personality that no one can help but love, or you haven’t been around here long enough.

Not sure where you got that $200k figure from(dartboard?).
Living at base, I'd swing that arbitrary number around to say you'd make 200$k MORE than our legacy friends year 1-5

our 1-5 rates lag others. Couple that with most others can upgrade in that time frame and I'd day 200k short might be well short of what others can make.

Not sure where you got that $200k figure from(dartboard?).
Living at base, I'd swing that arbitrary number around to say you'd make 200$k MORE than our legacy friends year 1-5

Call it military-bashing if you want, but the little b**ch that eeyore described flying with deserves to be laughed right out of town. He and his like are why we can’t have nice things.

So, you're basing it ALL off of pay rates(and possible upgrade)

yes, to try and simplify it

Y’all can relax, our days of military guys wanting to come here have passed unless they’re in need of regaining their currency to be competitive elsewhere. We’ll be free to tell our super badass stories of hand flying visuals into NTAs free from interruption with lame combat stories.

Contract Expectations
 

I’ve been here just about as long as you. Obviously, there’s people I enjoy flying with more than others, but the true odd ducks (1%ers ) are kind of.rare, and they come from all backgrounds. Maybe it’s just base dependent?

Not really military bashing, just some of the egos that emit is nauseating. I’m super pro military (did 8 yrs myself), but man, in the the 121 world it takes a little more “us” and less “me” mentality. Maybe I’m easier than most, but I’ve had no problems with anyone, military or otherwise. Sure a few cases of arrogance and a sprinkle of entitlement from the other direction, but nothing that couldn’t be fixed with a roll of the eyes.
But some of the stories I read in here….if they are true….some guys think way too highly of themselves.

OK you just reminded me of one of the funniest things I ever heard (who knows, might have even been you).
Had a guy at ACA who dipped and used his soda can as the spittoon. Did exactly as you, except the FO thought it was soda. Thought he’d one-up the CA and drink the soda, not knowing it was spit. Very brief but no doubt violent reaction to the swallow, they made the approach otherwise uneventfully. I guess they can both laugh about it now, but I’m curious to see how the ride to the hotel went.