Hyperbole. Buy you’re free to believe what you want.

I personally don’t think that logically follows but if that’s what you want to use as a rhetorical device, have at it.

I haven’t alleged secret meetings nor secret signals. That sounds like a straw man argument to paint me as some sort of conspiracy theorist. In a nutshell, I’ve said that the signs I’m seeing coming from SWAPA aren’t encouraging.

Sorry you see it that way. I don’t necessarily think SWAPA is intentionally doing anything nefarious. Much more likely to me is that, like the company’s highly ingrained and insular culture that led to the meltdown, SWAPA can also fall prey to the legacy of the culture from which it has evolved. We all know what that culture is: we colloquially call it “SWAPA 1.0.”

The best pilot contract we can obtain does require unity. You’re right about that.

But it very much matters what we’re unified around. If we’re more unified around the idea of blindly pledging allegiance to a SWAPA that does not seem to be aiming for the best possible contract we can obtain, then we will end up doing what we did last time: an 84% vote in favor of the near industry-bottom contract we work under right now because, as was said over and over at the time, “If it’s good enough for Jon and SWAPA. It’s good enough for me.”

Yes, we definitely need to be unified around a successful SAV. But the best possible contract will require going much further than a successful SAV. That’s what we need to be unified around.

Our strongest leverage, and labor experts across the decades agree on this, comes in the form of the credible threat of a legal strike. We need to be unified around the commitment to using that threat (and possibly actually employing it) to deliver the world’s best airline pilot contract to our pilot group.

I don’t always agree with Lew but he/she is well spoken and is always full of some thought provoking ideas. Just because he is asking questions and bringing up an interesting viewpoint on SWAPA doesn’t mean he is not for a unified front.

I personally don’t think it’s an all or nothing situation. I feel SWAPA is absolutely feckless, they are weak and they are afraid of going too far. They are there more for their own biding and have forgotten what a line swine like myself goes through. Just because I feel that way doesn’t change my support for them or a SAV, when and if that comes around. I believe I should hold them accountable and should ask hard questions to SWAPA and demand honest answers. Once again that does not change my unity toward SWAPA. You don’t have to be so binary in your thoughts and ideas. SWAPA and myself have a combined enemy so naturally we will bind over that.

Yes, but if that is your goal (I know it is mine) it seems strange that you are a non stop agitator AGAINST the union.

If I’m an “agitator” at all, I’m an agitator for an informed pilot group, especially a pilot group with deep knowledge of the RLA, and for this pilot group ending up with the world’s leading airline pilot contract without any asterisks, like “narrow body.”

You perceive that as “strange.” Okay.

We have the ability to set the bar for all of other airlines in the world to follow this contract cycle. Is that not something you’re interested in? The world’s best airline pilot career compensation, retirement, work rules, disability, and other benefits are all within our reach.

Not appealing to you?

It is to me.

I find it strange that you’re apparently not interested in finding out if we’re truly not going for that this contract cycle and, if not, why not? We may or may not again have a confluence of factors this favorable to laying hold of demands previous generations of airline pilots may have called “outrageous.” But we have those factors working in our favor RIGHT NOW.

But you’d rather allow the opportunity to slip away out of fear of offending SWAPA and other members like yourself who can’t seem to stand rigorous discourse and differing opinions?

Aren’t you interested in knowing if SWAPA intends to deliver the world’s best airline contract?

If that’s not their intent, wouldn’t you like the opportunity to provide them with the feedback to know that the membership wants more than what, for example, Delta and Alaska settled for so that they can adjust course before any more time goes by?

I do find it a little funny that we have no problem on APC calling out posters as F&H insurgents sent in to sow discord and disunity within the group…and then go out of our way to sow our own discord and disunity.

Maintaining outward support for the union and having internal reservations about what it’s doing aren’t mutually exclusive concepts. Haven’t personally heard anyone try to claim that you must blindly accept everything that comes from SWAPA, but not sure you’ll be able to cure whatever it is that’s giving you the heebee jeebies by putting them on public blast. If anything, seems to me to serve CK’s interests if he ever wants to make a case to the Bobs that he’s on the right negotiating path and our support for the union is faltering.

Keep that stuff in the cockpit, with the actual BoD or bare minimum leave it OTOF. As far as prying eyes can tell SWAPA does our negotiating, we support its efforts, we look forward to seeing what it produces and then will decide if it meets our high standards. Otherwise fight club man.

There you go again, accusing SWAPA of selling us short. You are tireless in your work AGAINST the union.

Do you have any proof of what you are saying?

LOL... Seriously?

The proof is in every industry lagging contract we've been sold and voted "YES!" for in the last 3 decades, including our current one sold to us by SWAPA 2.0.

Every single gripe the pilot group has could've/should've been fixed in past contracts.

That said, the last (current) one did, surprisingly, fix a few things in the pilot's favor, which was a major paradigm shift around here. With the exception of our 2002 extension, prior to that we pretty much gave the company whatever it wanted, with maybe a pittance "raise" here and there.

I agree with Lew that the signs coming from SWAPA are not pointing to an industry leading contract.

I am guessing that polling results are driving some of this, because there is still a shocking amount of Kool Aid circulating around amongst the pilot group, and, ultimately, SWAPA is responsible for representing all of us.

Never underestimate your peers willingness to sell themselves, and you, short around here.

You are going to let stuff that happened 30 years ago make you bag on what the union is doing now?

Most of those reps are probably dead by now. Damn, talk about holding a grudge.


as for me I’ll be voting YES on SAV…..and pushing for the most leverage


.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Apparently, reading comprehension is not your strong point.

Some things never change around here, which is why we're doomed to industry lagging contracts, which has been proven, time and again, to be exactly what most folks here want.