Did anyone's price actually go up?
01-09-2024, 05:02 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 142
[QUOTE=Cyio;3748390][QUOTE=Lostboys97;3748328]
Please do not compare "best hiring environment" to "best negotiating environment". While there is SOME commonality with the two, hiring is not the only driver of negotiating. Now who's obtuse?
Maybe don't be the last Union to come to a TA and feel the pressure to vote yes because you think the negotiating leverage has diminished...? NO 5 YEAR DEAL
Originally Posted by Cyio
Stop being obtuse, thats not what I said and you know it. The last two years however broke hiring records at most airlines, that would make them the years with the "best" hiring environment. Those days are over, airlines are slowing hiring if not all out canceling it, making the years ahead "not" the "best" hiring environment. This isnt a hard concept and I am not some managment schill trying to get you to vote yes, rather just stating the facts. We should have filed for mediation a year sooner, that would have put us in the "best" hiring enviroment.
Maybe don't be the last Union to come to a TA and feel the pressure to vote yes because you think the negotiating leverage has diminished...? NO 5 YEAR DEAL
01-09-2024, 05:38 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,662
[QUOTE=Lostboys97;3748412][QUOTE=Cyio;3748390]
Please do not compare "best hiring environment" to "best negotiating environment". While there is SOME commonality with the two, hiring is not the only driver of negotiating. Now who's obtuse?
Maybe don't be the last Union to come to a TA and feel the pressure to vote yes because you think the negotiating leverage has diminished...? NO 5 YEAR DEAL
It absolutely has some commonality and if it does, that affects things. I am not being obtuse, I even said we should have filed a year sooner.
The difference between us is that I actually see many gains in this and lead in most sections. You can choose to ignore this facts or feel that the gains were not enough of which you have that right, however my vote is a yes and has nothing to do with cowardice.
Originally Posted by Lostboys97
Please do not compare "best hiring environment" to "best negotiating environment". While there is SOME commonality with the two, hiring is not the only driver of negotiating. Now who's obtuse?
Maybe don't be the last Union to come to a TA and feel the pressure to vote yes because you think the negotiating leverage has diminished...? NO 5 YEAR DEAL
The difference between us is that I actually see many gains in this and lead in most sections. You can choose to ignore this facts or feel that the gains were not enough of which you have that right, however my vote is a yes and has nothing to do with cowardice.
01-09-2024, 09:06 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,004
Originally Posted by Lewbronski
For those of you who weren't around last time, the yes vote reasoning is pretty similar to last cycle. And now most folks are pretty dissatisfied with that contract.
Remove the dates and some contract specific details from these posts, and you wouldn't be able to discern which contract we're voting YES! for, going back decades.
Same arguments, some different folks.
At least this time we're getting pretty close to an almost industry average contract, for a change, and it took multiple pickets and a record setting SAV to get it.
01-09-2024, 11:44 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 142
[QUOTE=Cyio;3748417][QUOTE=Lostboys97;3748412]
I've already said I see gains. And probably the same gains you're voting yes for. However, you've commented on the unknown future and the negotiating environment for why SWAPA can't fix the sections that may be deficient. That's cowardice, plain and simple. It's disappointing.
Originally Posted by Cyio
It absolutely has some commonality and if it does, that affects things. I am not being obtuse, I even said we should have filed a year sooner.
The difference between us is that I actually see many gains in this and lead in most sections. You can choose to ignore this facts or feel that the gains were not enough of which you have that right, however my vote is a yes and has nothing to do with cowardice.
The difference between us is that I actually see many gains in this and lead in most sections. You can choose to ignore this facts or feel that the gains were not enough of which you have that right, however my vote is a yes and has nothing to do with cowardice.
01-09-2024, 12:03 PM
#27
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,796
[QUOTE=Lostboys97;3748622][QUOTE=Cyio;3748417]
I've already said I see gains. And probably the same gains you're voting yes for. However, you've commented on the unknown future and the negotiating environment for why SWAPA can't fix the sections that may be deficient. That's cowardice, plain and simple. It's disappointing.
Theres a difference between cowardice and less tolerance for risk. And you can save your disappointment. You’re not my Dad.
Every pilot has had the opportunity to read this thing, talk it over with family, decide whether it meets their needs or not and vote.
And every pilot will have to live with the results of that vote.
I respect that it didn’t live up to your expectations. Let’s see what happens.
Originally Posted by Lostboys97
I've already said I see gains. And probably the same gains you're voting yes for. However, you've commented on the unknown future and the negotiating environment for why SWAPA can't fix the sections that may be deficient. That's cowardice, plain and simple. It's disappointing.
Every pilot has had the opportunity to read this thing, talk it over with family, decide whether it meets their needs or not and vote.
And every pilot will have to live with the results of that vote.
I respect that it didn’t live up to your expectations. Let’s see what happens.
01-09-2024, 01:00 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,662
[QUOTE=Lostboys97;3748622][QUOTE=Cyio;3748417]
I've already said I see gains. And probably the same gains you're voting yes for. However, you've commented on the unknown future and the negotiating environment for why SWAPA can't fix the sections that may be deficient. That's cowardice, plain and simple. It's disappointing.
Fine you call me coward, I call you reckless. Even stevens.
See, calling eachother names really doesnt do anything, however you are free to feel the way you feel and I am free to feel the way I do. I actually think the contract is good, I have read/listened/watched everything the union has put out as well as the opposition hit pieces and I still find myself feeling good about it. Its not perfect, but in reality no deal ever is perfect. In addition there is nothing wrong with making an educated guess on how the next year will play out. I dont think the company cares to be honest, they have a stack of resumes and are slowing their hiring windows. People will come here regardless of the contract and I "think" stalling on this will only help the company and we end up in the same place or worse a year from now.
My family cant wait that long or take that risk. The improvements to the disability both ltd/std and lol is to good to pass up and I am simply not willing to roll the dice. If this contract was total garbage I would be onboard with you, but its not, so here we are.
Guess you and I will cancel eachother out. Be well.
Originally Posted by Lostboys97
I've already said I see gains. And probably the same gains you're voting yes for. However, you've commented on the unknown future and the negotiating environment for why SWAPA can't fix the sections that may be deficient. That's cowardice, plain and simple. It's disappointing.
See, calling eachother names really doesnt do anything, however you are free to feel the way you feel and I am free to feel the way I do. I actually think the contract is good, I have read/listened/watched everything the union has put out as well as the opposition hit pieces and I still find myself feeling good about it. Its not perfect, but in reality no deal ever is perfect. In addition there is nothing wrong with making an educated guess on how the next year will play out. I dont think the company cares to be honest, they have a stack of resumes and are slowing their hiring windows. People will come here regardless of the contract and I "think" stalling on this will only help the company and we end up in the same place or worse a year from now.
My family cant wait that long or take that risk. The improvements to the disability both ltd/std and lol is to good to pass up and I am simply not willing to roll the dice. If this contract was total garbage I would be onboard with you, but its not, so here we are.
Guess you and I will cancel eachother out. Be well.
01-09-2024, 01:07 PM
#29
weekends off? Nope...
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,951
[QUOTE=Lostboys97;3748622][QUOTE=Cyio;3748417]
I've already said I see gains. And probably the same gains you're voting yes for. However, you've commented on the unknown future and the negotiating environment for why SWAPA can't fix the sections that may be deficient. That's cowardice, plain and simple. It's disappointing.
Whats the saying about old and bold pilots? I think the same can be said regarding negotiations, especially when it's evident the winds of change are upon us. Think that max -7 is showing up anytime soon? Im sure glad Alaska didn't have thier event on 1/23 after we flexed our supposed bravado!
Originally Posted by Lostboys97
I've already said I see gains. And probably the same gains you're voting yes for. However, you've commented on the unknown future and the negotiating environment for why SWAPA can't fix the sections that may be deficient. That's cowardice, plain and simple. It's disappointing.
01-09-2024, 01:33 PM
#30
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: various and various
Posts: 56
No
It did… Lots of chest thumping, but when it came down to it, guys took firmly hold of the FUD and negotiating fatigue.. and now are justifying why "it's the be best we can do in this environment" save us from ourselves... Valencia style... was 1 billion overlooked then.... we'll see how much this time. No reserve cap, co-terminals, pay that with "bonus" is really just a cost of living adjustment, nothing else. 15 or 16 times (I lost count) "company will make every effort to..." with no penalty when the don't make it. Implementation up to 3 is years of a 5 year contract.. ...
MEH
.. company played it perfectly... delay,............................................ .... hire as many yes voters as you can........ new guy has ZERO reason to not vote for instant monster short term pay raise..Karl played his part to a T.
and yes, I listened to every minute of the published town halls, qna etc.. talked to 6 different reps, 2 nc guys emailed, texted, for the most part got a sales pitch, or something to the effect of, " the gains far outweighed what we gave up.... but don't worry! We're REALLY gonna get 'em next time! Just you watch, they won't know what hit 'em!
sorry, but..... nope
MEH
.. company played it perfectly... delay,............................................ .... hire as many yes voters as you can........ new guy has ZERO reason to not vote for instant monster short term pay raise..Karl played his part to a T.
and yes, I listened to every minute of the published town halls, qna etc.. talked to 6 different reps, 2 nc guys emailed, texted, for the most part got a sales pitch, or something to the effect of, " the gains far outweighed what we gave up.... but don't worry! We're REALLY gonna get 'em next time! Just you watch, they won't know what hit 'em!
sorry, but..... nope
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