SWA to AA (Pros/Cons)
03-04-2024, 08:39 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by e6bpilot
Just to clarify, I never said it was shrinking. With the way AA is retiring, hiring, and upgrading, even your smallest bases will have vacancies. All I was saying is that it is definitely not a "most favored" AA base and a lot of the flying there has slowly gone away.
I am not a "my shop is better than your shop" guy and I know what I would do in the OPs shoes, but let's all be candid and honest here about the situation. If you want to live in a base and still commute, I think you are insane, but that is your perogative. PHX was a merger base that has not grown like the rest of the airline. SWA probably doesn't have much growing to do there either, but they have a big pilot base that is going to be there for the near and distant future.
I am not a "my shop is better than your shop" guy and I know what I would do in the OPs shoes, but let's all be candid and honest here about the situation. If you want to live in a base and still commute, I think you are insane, but that is your perogative. PHX was a merger base that has not grown like the rest of the airline. SWA probably doesn't have much growing to do there either, but they have a big pilot base that is going to be there for the near and distant future.
03-04-2024, 11:32 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by e6bpilot
Also, I am not so sure that AA is going to be around forever in PHX. That base is definitely languishing for them. I have taken a lot of AA commuters from PHX to LAX, which to me seems like a hell of a way to waste a lot of time and money.
03-04-2024, 01:13 PM
#25
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Posts: 141
Originally Posted by Fly90
Not trying to turn this into an AA or SWA bashing thread…just wanted some honest feedback about the original post.
"I have CJO's to AA and WN" would be more balanced
But the big question here is how much a years seniority is worth at Southwest. Southwest isn't going away - and I wouldn't confuse the LCC model with the ULCC model. They're different. Late night TV doesn't treat Southwest and Spirit the same, at all. It's a little harder to see what the LCC model is today because basically the legacies (that used to serve hot food in coach between DC9's going from Cleveland to Raleigh) have copied it.
There might be a wrong choice, but it's not obvious now. Personally, I think there's a slight edge to AA - size, diversity, options - but they are both SOLID options.
03-04-2024, 01:27 PM
#26
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Posts: 1
Pro/Con list looks well thought out. I would add the risk of furlough to the list. Nobody likes a downer, but asset valuations are overpriced by every historical measure on record. You would be leaving the best balance sheet in the industry for the worst. Pointed out elsewhere in the forums, SWA will be the last to furlough (historically) while the big three pattern is to hire 'til fire. I'm not sure I would give AA better odds of being around in 35 years. Between the two, AA has gone chapter 11 while SWA has been profitable every year. The 9/11 watermark took a cut at roughly 20-30% of legacy seniority. It would be years until some of them were offered jobs again. The "lost decade," as some recall. Covid would have been much worse without the bailout from Uncle Sugar. Would not gamble my security on future bailouts.
Tough choice if the siren song of WB lifestyle is irresistible. WB reserve is a great deal if you're okay with being on the hook 3 weeks out of the month for min guarantee. Long haul trips, however, present their own tradeoffs that inherently involve circadian rhythm interruption. Flying through the night 2-3 times a month will take a toll unless you can zonk out for 4 hours in the bunk and make up the rest during your 30-hour layover. Sounds like a young man's game to me. These were my considerations in choosing SWA over the big 3, if it helps. I realize I am in the minority. Best of luck in your decision.
Tough choice if the siren song of WB lifestyle is irresistible. WB reserve is a great deal if you're okay with being on the hook 3 weeks out of the month for min guarantee. Long haul trips, however, present their own tradeoffs that inherently involve circadian rhythm interruption. Flying through the night 2-3 times a month will take a toll unless you can zonk out for 4 hours in the bunk and make up the rest during your 30-hour layover. Sounds like a young man's game to me. These were my considerations in choosing SWA over the big 3, if it helps. I realize I am in the minority. Best of luck in your decision.
03-04-2024, 02:58 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,445
Originally Posted by VacancyBid
If the situation were "I'm at AA should I go to SWA" there wouldn't be much support
"I have CJO's to AA and WN" would be more balanced
But the big question here is how much a years seniority is worth at Southwest. Southwest isn't going away - and I wouldn't confuse the LCC model with the ULCC model. They're different. Late night TV doesn't treat Southwest and Spirit the same, at all. It's a little harder to see what the LCC model is today because basically the legacies (that used to serve hot food in coach between DC9's going from Cleveland to Raleigh) have copied it.
There might be a wrong choice, but it's not obvious now. Personally, I think there's a slight edge to AA - size, diversity, options - but they are both SOLID options.
"I have CJO's to AA and WN" would be more balanced
But the big question here is how much a years seniority is worth at Southwest. Southwest isn't going away - and I wouldn't confuse the LCC model with the ULCC model. They're different. Late night TV doesn't treat Southwest and Spirit the same, at all. It's a little harder to see what the LCC model is today because basically the legacies (that used to serve hot food in coach between DC9's going from Cleveland to Raleigh) have copied it.
There might be a wrong choice, but it's not obvious now. Personally, I think there's a slight edge to AA - size, diversity, options - but they are both SOLID options.
Neither are bad choices, though.
03-04-2024, 03:02 PM
#28
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Posts: 21
Originally Posted by VacancyBid
If the situation were "I'm at AA should I go to SWA" there wouldn't be much support
"I have CJO's to AA and WN" would be more balanced
But the big question here is how much a years seniority is worth at Southwest. Southwest isn't going away - and I wouldn't confuse the LCC model with the ULCC model. They're different. Late night TV doesn't treat Southwest and Spirit the same, at all. It's a little harder to see what the LCC model is today because basically the legacies (that used to serve hot food in coach between DC9's going from Cleveland to Raleigh) have copied it.
There might be a wrong choice, but it's not obvious now. Personally, I think there's a slight edge to AA - size, diversity, options - but they are both SOLID options.
"I have CJO's to AA and WN" would be more balanced
But the big question here is how much a years seniority is worth at Southwest. Southwest isn't going away - and I wouldn't confuse the LCC model with the ULCC model. They're different. Late night TV doesn't treat Southwest and Spirit the same, at all. It's a little harder to see what the LCC model is today because basically the legacies (that used to serve hot food in coach between DC9's going from Cleveland to Raleigh) have copied it.
There might be a wrong choice, but it's not obvious now. Personally, I think there's a slight edge to AA - size, diversity, options - but they are both SOLID options.
03-04-2024, 04:53 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by FooManchu
Pro/Con list looks well thought out. I would add the risk of furlough to the list. Nobody likes a downer, but asset valuations are overpriced by every historical measure on record. You would be leaving the best balance sheet in the industry for the worst. Pointed out elsewhere in the forums, SWA will be the last to furlough (historically) while the big three pattern is to hire 'til fire. I'm not sure I would give AA better odds of being around in 35 years. Between the two, AA has gone chapter 11 while SWA has been profitable every year. The 9/11 watermark took a cut at roughly 20-30% of legacy seniority. It would be years until some of them were offered jobs again. The "lost decade," as some recall. Covid would have been much worse without the bailout from Uncle Sugar. Would not gamble my security on future bailouts.
Tough choice if the siren song of WB lifestyle is irresistible. WB reserve is a great deal if you're okay with being on the hook 3 weeks out of the month for min guarantee. Long haul trips, however, present their own tradeoffs that inherently involve circadian rhythm interruption. Flying through the night 2-3 times a month will take a toll unless you can zonk out for 4 hours in the bunk and make up the rest during your 30-hour layover. Sounds like a young man's game to me. These were my considerations in choosing SWA over the big 3, if it helps. I realize I am in the minority. Best of luck in your decision.
Tough choice if the siren song of WB lifestyle is irresistible. WB reserve is a great deal if you're okay with being on the hook 3 weeks out of the month for min guarantee. Long haul trips, however, present their own tradeoffs that inherently involve circadian rhythm interruption. Flying through the night 2-3 times a month will take a toll unless you can zonk out for 4 hours in the bunk and make up the rest during your 30-hour layover. Sounds like a young man's game to me. These were my considerations in choosing SWA over the big 3, if it helps. I realize I am in the minority. Best of luck in your decision.
If I went to AA it would have nothing to do with WBs to be honest. I don’t sleep well on airplanes and I don’t like sitting on one for more than a few hours. But that’s another discussion…
I really like SWA and it suits me very well. I just want to make sure I’m doing my due diligence and gathering all the data. I’d definitely be giving up a lot of seniority and by the time I had a class date at AA I’d probably be on the back side of their big wave. But idk.
I guess my thoughts are my seniority would progress so much at AA quickly that I could probably have just as much time off at AA as I do at SWA.
03-04-2024, 09:34 PM
#30
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Posts: 23
Originally Posted by Fly90
Currently at SWA - Year 2. Almost 2K pilots below me. Live in base. Genuinely have enjoyed SWA - great people, great schedule, great flexibility. It was one of my top choices. New contract is a home run for the most part (in my opinion of course).
That said, this issue with the MAX7 and the stop in hiring has got my wondering if this is the place to be with all the growth at the legacies. I’ve got 35+ years to go. I hate commuting so for me it’s either SWA or AA (I could live in multiple bases at either airline). Yes, I have an AA interview invite.
SWA Pros:
SWA Cons:
AA Pros:
AA Cons:
I’d say the biggest advantage AA has over SWA is the seniority progression and lack of stagnation that SWA will have. There is a lot of growth going on over at AA. I suppose the lack of schedule flexibility and days off would be made up reasonably quickly with the seniority progression.
I think my biggest concern with SWA is what our future looks like. The legacies are making tons of money right now. Again, lots of growth. The low cost carrier model is not what it once was. Will SWA still be here in a reasonable capacity in 20-30 years? I hope so.
No doubt, it would be a risky move to leave now. That said, with AAs retirements it seems unlikely that they would see furloughs, even with another economic downturn/event. But as always…it’s anyone’s best guess.
Delta and United are out of the picture as I won’t commute to their bases.
That said, this issue with the MAX7 and the stop in hiring has got my wondering if this is the place to be with all the growth at the legacies. I’ve got 35+ years to go. I hate commuting so for me it’s either SWA or AA (I could live in multiple bases at either airline). Yes, I have an AA interview invite.
SWA Pros:
- Great schedules (averaged 17-18 days off) you can have this with 2-3 years of seniority
- Great flexibility SWA has better flexibility in basic schedule and trip trade but the other side is if YOU are flexible you can work PBS/conflict bidding/IMAX
- Great vacation AA 21 days year one. It get kind of weird as you'll gain a day or two but can only bid 7 day blocks but you'll have more time earlier in you career at AA
- Great people YES x1000
- No PBS I would call that a pro or con except when you are junior it just has a learning curve to it with seniority PBS is a huge pro
SWA Cons:
- Stagnation
- Poor leadership (I could turn this into several bullet points, but I’ll just wrap it up in this one) Don't sell WN short they are just as bad as AA. Call it a wash.
- What are we going to do once the 737 is gone? (Is leadership even thinking about this?) What if the MAX7 never shows up? I think that is a very real problem. I think I've posted on this site maybe 3 or 4 times. One of them was a therory that David Neeleman could see this and that's been his plan for Breeze all along. It's not Flight ops maintenance or below the wing that's a proble it's the company itself. WN has spent so much on investors and so little on the actual improvement of the company I don't think they have any real plan for selling seats, dispatching, handling or training a diffrent airframe. It would cost Billions to fix the basic IT, infrastructure, and policy/procedures.
AA Pros:
- Lots of growth = fast seniority progression DFW 737 CA is at 2 years
- Multi-type fleet (the fact that AA isn’t so dependent on one fleet type is good). The real benifit isn't dependency on one type, if one is grounded a good chunk of pilots aren't flying, the real benifit if seniority. If you split you pilot pool in half and maybe 2 quals movement is slow, if you split your pool into 8 parts then throw in a bunch of regional quals you can choose a bit of relative seniority.
AA Cons:
- Schedules - less time off overall (I know there are exceptions for senior guys). Yes when Jr. Res at AA you're going to be on the hook for more days. It doesn't necessarily take seniority but there is a learning curve to playing the games at AA with bidding.
- Lack of schedule flexibility (AA seems severely lacking in this regard, especially compared to SWA) YES. AA is probably the worst but in 2 years I can't think of anything I needed to be at and couldn't make. Plus home every thanksgiving, Christmas and birthday so far.
- PBS
- New contract has the money, but still lacking in QOL rules (talked with several senior AA guys who agree) what is QOL to you? Might be different to others.
- More 4 day trips, lots of redeyes, etc the 320 get a bunch of red eyes not so much on the 737 only time I've seen them was when I bid LAX TDY and took the kids to Disney and the beach while sitting long call reserve in SNA (subject to change like everything). 4 day trips were getting out of control there were some limitation on trip constructions in the new contract but I think most would say they didn't go far enough.
I’d say the biggest advantage AA has over SWA is the seniority progression and lack of stagnation that SWA will have. There is a lot of growth going on over at AA. I suppose the lack of schedule flexibility and days off would be made up reasonably quickly with the seniority progression.
I think my biggest concern with SWA is what our future looks like. The legacies are making tons of money right now. Again, lots of growth. The low cost carrier model is not what it once was. Will SWA still be here in a reasonable capacity in 20-30 years? I hope so.
No doubt, it would be a risky move to leave now. That said, with AAs retirements it seems unlikely that they would see furloughs, even with another economic downturn/event. But as always…it’s anyone’s best guess.
Delta and United are out of the picture as I won’t commute to their bases.
I have tremendous respect for SWA pilots some of my greatest mentors were/are there. SWA has the best check airmen and standards department in the industry. There's a lot I miss about it, mostly the people. In the end what is right for you might not be right for someone else. This is right for me. Someone asked what is a year of seniority at WN worth and I think the only answer is it's worth what you want it to be. None of us are going to be hurting financially and if we are it's not because of career choices. What is important to you?
P.S. a more direct answer might be AA 737 DFW CA is at 2 years if your more than 2 1/2 years from upgrade you'll do better at AA. Also I if the MAX7 doesn't get certified your better off at AA, if it does then AA gets their MAX10 orders and that's group III pay.
Its not about which company is better they are both run by jerks. It's about which job provides you a better life when you aren't working.
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