WN or UA for MCO NH?
 

Hi all, a similar thread has been posted on the United sub, but I thought I'd ask here to get the WN opinion:

If you had class dates at both United and Southwest, and lived in MCO let's say, which would be the better option for a slightly-more-than-middle-aged guy who doesn't love commuting but would like to get back to the left seat someday soon?

I've heard MCO is junior for WN FO, and I know you guys can rock impressive TFPs if you want. And the people at WN seem great no doubt. But the upgrade at UA seems much quicker, if you're willing to commute to EWR forever. Holding MCO FO at UA seems like it could take 3 years, then it's commute or move to be in base, at EWR? Maybe DEN?

I want to work at WN. The people and culture seem to fit me a lot better than UA. But I gotta get rid of the gnawing worry that I'd be leaving such an great opportunity on the table at UA.

I know no one has a crystal ball, but there are quite a few of us in this position and the time to nail down the decision is rapidly approaching. So any and all advice is warmly welcomed.

Thank you

I won’t tell you which Airline to pick as that’s a personal choice that you have to make that works for you and your family. I will say that I’ve never seen WN more committed to growing MCO in my 20 years here than right now. They want to create a “hub” (we’re technically not allowed to call it that) at MCO with 2-300 daily departures out of there. United is a great Airline, but they most likely will never grow MCO into anything other than a small mini pilot domicile. Two great choices, I think you would have a great career at either. Congrats.

You’re not alone. Many of us have had to make that hard choice. Count it a blessing that you’re in such a situation. Try to enjoy the moment rather than stress it. In the future, you’ll go back and forth over whether your decision was correct. There is no preventing that. In the end, you’ll need to prioritize your wants because the ones that you listed are opposed to one another and won’t all be met at one airline. I’m a quality of life guy and would always prioritize not commuting over upgrade. Others are different. Big congrats on getting to this intersection!

Ultimate answer to me would be if you’re willing to move. If your priority is MCO, go southwest. If it’s job, United

In my opinion base matters so much more than anything else and I have a hunch that upgrade time might come down a bit in the semi near future based on retirements finally ramping up and the way the company is behaving around expansion and potential fleet changes. SWA is a laid back environment and with a little seniority can do some pretty unique things with your schedule. Great place to work, although we have our issues like anywhere else. UAL is definitely the hot ticket right now and looks like it may be that way for a while. I had offers from both as well and chose SWA due to domicile preference and I don’t regret it one bit, despite my friends at UAL and DAL telling me I do. I wanna believe that we are starting to break out of the awkward stages of re structuring the airline and that in a year or two this place will be back to some of the strongest financials in the industry along with the lowest debt. Maybe I’m too optimistic, but maybe not. Ultimately up to you, but if you end up commuting for a long time the annoyance of that will overtake the shine of being at the big ticket place. Can’t go wrong either way. Good luck to you.

If you want a quicker upgrade (as of today—remember this kind of planning is all snapshots), UAL would be my choice. At WN MCO goes fairly junior for FOs. By the time an upgrade comes, it likely won’t be in MCO—in the last ten years the upgrade times and bases have made wild swings. Who knows what it will be like five years from now…

Something to keep in mind as well....

https://www.fapa.aero/pilot-hiring-history

Go back a few years and take a look at the number of pilots hired just since 2021 i.e. post-COVID. Just for kicks... United Airlines alone has hired over 8200 pilots in the last 4 years. Still think you'll upgrade quickly? In the same timeframe, Southwest hired 3500 pilots.

Another question I'd be asking myself... what percentage of those pilots hired in the last 4 years are sporting their first successful mustache? Think of the effect of those young mustached 25 year olds on your career progression.

Then take the scale back to pre COVID and check out how many were hired pre-COVID.

Practical advice... go where you get hired first and drive to work. Don't commute. Don't count on upgrades - it's a very good life being an FO at either place, but you're getting hired at the back end of the wave.

Some but not many. Average age throughout has been mid 30's.

And they'll have essentially no impact on the career progression of a slightly-more-than-middle-aged guy.

As for hiring 8000 - it's a lot and it's out of 18000
The 3500 at Southwest is also a large fraction.

In terms of a pilot who has a short time horizon, United is the definite winner. WB options make junior NBCA more accessible. Exactly how accessible? There's a major NBCA bid next month, stay tuned.

This post answers the question.

Upgrade is over rated (at least at our rates) and living in base is under rated.

Don’t commute. Make your decisions on that.

As someone who commuted for nearly a decade, don’t do it. Either be willing to move or choose the airline that offers you a spot in your town.

Best of luck, either will net you a very great life.

Thank you all for your take on the situation; it is very much appreciated.

id go to SW get into your home base quicker and not have the stress of communting and being jr at the same time. You can chose when/where and if to upgrade when that tome comes.

How do you feel about hats?

😂

…..,,…

Probably depends on how much of his hair he’s still attached to.

Disagree slightly. UA product is definitely better. SWA contract and flexibility is industry leading in most aspects. If you don’t have WB dreams, then SWA is the place to be as a junior FO living in base.

The best place to get advice on a huge decision like this is definitely a forum of random clowns like me!

you don’t come to SWA for the quick upgrade, which it sounds like is most important to you

If getting to MCO is the key goal, SWA is the place to go.

UA has arguably better long-term career prospects company-wide, but if you're going to lock yourself to MCO, SWA is much better.

Pay as a SWA FO will be better, as will schedule...and you'll get to MCO quickly. You may not get to MCO for several years @ UA. Upgrade will take a long time at both places but MCO is insanely senior on the CA side for UA.

So yeah - if you're locking yourself into MCO, UA doesn't make a lot of sense.

Take it from an idiot (me) who commuted for 15 years. Avoid it at all costs. You literally waste your life away sitting around airports. To paraphrase what someone said earlier, this is a great career no matter what uniform you wear, but commuting will eventually make you hate it. Living in base turns it into a very highly paid part-time job.

Don’t commute if you can avoid it. Do you want to fly long-haul? We have had challenges recently here at SWA, but those will hopefully ease here in the next year or two. Sitting right seat here for a while is solid now with the new contract. Did I say avoid commuting at all costs?

I had the same choice almost 10 years ago - just replace MCO with DEN. At the time, Denver was super senior at United with no widebody flying. I had my neighbor UA pilot still commuting after 10 years with the company while SWA was a few months at worst. SWA certainly seemed like the better choice, and it absolutely was for several years. Well, flip the switch and United makes a big push at DEN and suddenly they are making insta-captains at DEN and have added WB flying. Meanwhile SWA has downsized and has displaced a fairly sizeable portion of their Denver pilots.

Not telling you anything you don’t know already, but today’s snapshot can be vastly different than tomorrow’s reality. UA could decide to push in MCO. Conversely, SWA could introduce another fleet type. My take is your first 5 years or so will favor SWA, after that UA. What’s more important to you? For me with young kids at home at the time, I prioritized immediate QOL at SWA over long-term prospects at United. No regrats with that choice.

Southwest if trying to do a radical transformation, hopefully it works out for us in 2026. 3rd quarter WN is expecting a loss, united made over a billion dollars.

There’s a lot to like at Southwest but I’d go to United, it’s stable and not trying to reinvent itself.

I’m at SWA commuting 3 time zones due to the displacements. It sucks. I wish I was in OP shoes.

You have applications out and updated?

My personal experience, it's worked better driving to senior schedules, with Momma holding down a job.

Vice commuting to extreme juniority with more pay.

yes, I do. Family comes first and I don’t see an end in sight even with supposed hiring.

How long have you been here? Where were you displaced from/to?

It’s not all that difficult at SWA to make 80-90% of Captain pay as an FO in Mco (especially now that it’s bigger and more of a jr base) once you are able to hold a line.

Agree with other posters, if married to Mco Swa has a slight edge. If willing/able to move to other UAL bases United would have the advantage (but not as large as they used to due to the massive hiring #’s post Covid).

Almost 2 years. West coast to east coast.

Hopefully that irons out soon for you. I understand that pain from a previous airline life. Hopefully with the hiring of next year and the subsequent upgrades you can get back soon.

I ran a seniority calculator for a junior pilot. If SWA grows 0%, it takes 13 years to hit 50%. I think we have 300 some retiring this year and I believe our hiring will be a smaller number, thus "shrinking" with a quarterly loss. No one has any idea what the future of the airline will be here with Elliott. I'm personally doubting any fleet change or other big ticket item change any time soon. Our only hope is the 7max getting certified sooner than later. As an 8 yr FO, I can not hold a capt seat in any base. I'm planning on another 3 years to hold my base of choice while avoiding AM reserve as a capt.

Mrs Luscombe is at AA. Their retirements are still going strong. Each system bid, her seniority grows at a much much faster rate than my number at SWA.

The widebody FO life allows her to work less and earn more. Something to think about where you want to be in a few years. 4 legs a day with quick turns or the "1 and done" augmented option.

Good luck. You're doing more to fix your problem than most people who are often content to just complain about it while remaining in the situation because they like their alternatives worse or are too scared/lazy to actually do anything about it.

Thanks. I’m home about one day a week these days due to a day commute on both ends. I try to hustle my schedule as much as possible but it’s hard when you have nothing desirable to trade and can’t ELITT reserve. Went to RTAG this weekend and met with Delta and United. Lack of TPIC is definitely not helping.

They really need to announce where this new base is so the union can figure out how good it’ll be to unscrew this mess the company created and get people back where they want to be.

right. I think San Diego is wishful thinking on my end. Maybe Austin could get me to LAX or OAK. MCI or STL, I assume I’ll still be commuting to the East Coast.

I think it will be announced before the end of the month.

That's tough. In a company where the earliest upgrade may be as soon as one year, TPIC could make a 3 yr skywest CA a more attractive candidate than a 4 yr SWA FO. Tough situation to be in for sure. I hope it works out and you end up not having to commute soon.

I know it's not a popular option, but have you considered moving? It's a strange suggestion and perhaps I'm only making it because I was military and had to move every 3-5 years between age 18 and 47, but when I got out of the AF one of the first and most important things my wife and I discussed was moving to where my job would be, instead of trying to find a job where we already were. That changed the discussion dramatically and really let us talk about our life and career goals as a much wider horizon of opportunities instead of threats. Just food for thought...

My bet is STL, For The sole reason to give MDW Relief. AUS & SAN make more sense for distribution of crews .