Thats how I understood it. I was a lil confused wen the following comments were saying ur a troll

I think the company will increase its RASM if we can stop pi$$ing our passengers off and start being reliable. Being able to staff the airline plays a big part in that.

I think we need to look at the big picture here. I recently did a flight Houston to Las Vegas. Let's look at the numbers. I'm an 11 year captain and I make $165 an hour (way too low). It took three hours to do the flight. I made $495. Now divide that by 182 seats, and then divide that by 1272 miles. The answer you get is .00213 CASM for me. That's 2 thousandths of a penny per mile I'm costing the company. If I were to get a raise to $250 an hour, my portion of CASM would be .00312. The cost would only go up .0009 cents. Now, you also have to include the FO at roughly 2/3 of that. When the company says our CASM is around 5.5 and says it would go up by any appreciable amount they are lying. Even if we all got a raise to $500 an hour, our CASM would still be under six cents. Yes, this may be oversimplified and there are intangibles that I cannot quantify here. But to say a raise to industry-standard pay would cripple the company, is flat out wrong. We would still have one of the lowest CASMs in the industry, and one of the highest percent profit. And by the way my retro check is approaching $160,000 and climbing.

Not calling you out specifically, your post had CASM in it.

Good summary. Looking at the big picture though. Traditionally airline costs are 30% for airplanes, 30% for fuel, and 30% for payroll. The first two items the company won't be able to do anything about. The last one though, being the ULCC like it is with low RASM, that's where it'll need to be significantly lower than non ULCC competitors. If they staffed and paid the airline (not just the pilots) like a legacy airline, that profit would shrink away rather quickly.

Hell, even the janitors in Miramar, if they weren't outsourced, can come up with fancy charts and numbers that say if Spirit paid the 10 of them $1 million a year each, it'd still be huuuugely profitable company. But it just ain't gonna happen.

I think you're the only ones counting that retro check, because I doubt anyone cares.

The only thing that matters is what the mediators, arbitrators, the members of NMB, and the president thinks. And if Spirit has indeed proposed wages and work rules similar to it's counterparts, and if they consider the counterparts are Allegiant, Frontier, and Sun Country. There will never be a strike because the company will have deemed to be negotiating in good faith. I'm sure your union will do their best to compare itself to United, Delta, AA...etc, but once the revenue comparisons are laid out, I just don't see it happening.

Good luck though.

Feel free to correct me and contribute to the conversation. It's an open forum you know!!

Yeah, I was being facetious with the retro check. I just looked up flights from Houston to Vegas. On Saturday (fight night), Spirit is $59 one-way. United ranges from $81 basic economy to over $2000. On the Friday of Labor Day weekend, Spirit is $169 and United ranges from $235 to over $1000. I am under no illusions that Spirit will keep the ticket price the same. Using my previous example of an $85 an hour raise, Spirit would have to raise ticket prices 46 cents to cover my portion of the flight. Spirit could even raise tickets $20 and still be well underneath the average price going to Vegas. We would still be an ultra low-cost carrier. It would just cost a consumer slightly more money to go somewhere. If Spirit were smart, they would just increase the bag fee by a dollar and they could keep their "low ticket price" image.

I believe I saw somewhere that the company does not consider allegiant our peer. They do consider Frontier, Southwest, JetBlue, Alaska, and Virgin to be our peers as well as the big three. We will see how that plays out. I do agree that it's basically up to the mediator as to who is being more reasonable. Last time we were released in a bankruptcy environment when we were asking to be paid more than USAir drivers. The mediator finally got tired of the company shenanigans and let us walk. I see the company making the same mistakes as last time so we will have to wait and see how farthe mediator let's it go.

Don't forget ol' BBBBooooo, BBBbooobbbb, bbbbbbbb, Bob makes more than Gary Kelly. Who is his peer?

Check your decimal placement. Love, the Math Nazi.

Which one?
165 times 3 divided by 182 divided by 1276 = .00213

There is much more to being a ULCC than labor. Aircraft utilization for one and real estate for two. How the other work groups get paid is up to them. We negotiate for ourselves. Revenue will increase with an industry standard pilot contract and cost associated with IROPs will go down.

Feng,

Give me one good reason why you are here managing down our expectations and telling us who our "peers" are and how you think an airline cost structure works? As a pilot that isn't benificial to you in any way whether you work at spirit or not. If you work at a lobor busting law firm like ford and Harrison or are a member of spirit management I can see your motivation. You seemed to have clearly picked a side and I can tell you it's the wrong one.

And btw I am counting on full retro so it's safe to say it's more than one of us. Delta got it. Hawaiian got it. It's industry standard.

They can add a pilot happiness fee on the website for all care. FUPM

True that, but it's 2/1000's of a dollar, not a cent.

Yeah all that, but low labor cost is still one of the, if not the core principal of an ULCC business. Once there's a contract revenue will increase? What?

I'm not managing anything. In fact I couldn't care less how this turn out, though I do enjoy being right :) Last I checked this is an open forum for discussing industry topics. That's precisely what I'm doing. Talking about what I think will happen with your contract. You certainly have an opinion on this, though I think it's completely asinine. I'm just here to express mine.

Wow...."It's a free country and I got my 1st amendment rights" rebuttal....

The only thing missing is the "drop the mic" exit...

Hahaha! Math is hard!

So then Delta's pilots provide different services for every fare class in the plane right?

Senior mediator Pat Simms has defined our peer group as SWA, JetBlue and Alaska/Virgin during her first sessions with both parties.

Her opinion DOES matter.

Feng, your like a preacher in a brothel. You just don't belong! Why don't you go back where you came from and tell everyone else your fairy tales. [emoji482]

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And I whole heartedly agree that her opinion is one of the few that actually does matter unlike the company's, your union's, mine, and yours, and everyone else on this board.

I can't verify the validity of your post of her opinion, it does seem to make sense. Mostly non mega domestic'ish airlines. Thought I don't know if she perhaps also mentioned the likes of Frontier, Allegiant, and Sun Country in there somewhere, because that would make sense also, but you just chose to omit them because it doesn't fit your narrative. Who knows if her opinion has changed since then, given the development that Sun Country recently announced that they're shifting towards an ULCC model as well.

By yeah, her opinion does matter.

And to Qotsa, just because you keep saying it, does not make it any truer. Full retro is simply not industry standard. In just about ANY industry. It sometimes happens, more likely when the negotiations were short and the amounts are small, but most don't for anybody. But keep counting though and that $1.5 million dollar check will be in the mail for everybody in about 7 years. :)

So following her logic, Southwest Airlines, jetBlue Airlines, Alaska, and Spirit Airlines don't directly COMPETE with Delta, United, or American.

I wonder if the management of those Airlines would agree that they don't directly COMPETE with the big three.

Does IGA directly compete with Kroger, Publics, and/or Walmart? Does Geico directly compete with State Farm, Allstate, and Progressive? Does Kia directly compete with Ford, GM, Toyota, and Chrysler? Does the neighborhood drug store directly compete with CVS, Walgreens, or RiteAid?

Apparently not, if we use the logic from Senior Mediator, Pat Simms.

But it's not hard to fathom the idea that a GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE may not understand the concept of "competition".

Feng,

You realize that spirit not securing an industry standard CBA only hurts you as a pilot? Why lower expectations? I personally don't care what you or management or anyone outside this pilot group thinks because we are not going to ratify a deal that is not industry standard. The whole industry!

Scope, pay, retirement, LTD

He's a troll, that's why... The beauty of anonymous boards is that he can hide who he is. Management is trying to manage expectations and it isn't going to work. This place makes the shareholder too much money to let it go down. Even with a 45 million loss this summer, they still beat expectations. This place will pay industry standard, it's just a matter of time. Our ceo makes more than swa ceo, so I figure what's good for the goose....

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Qotsa

Nothing I say nor do will lower the expection of your pilot group. You clearly see that with all the Spirit pilots' postings right? Nor is that my intent. Not that anything anyone says on a online forum matters anyhow. I just enjoy chatting about predictions on the outcome. Your group, from what I can tell, is so galvanized that it will vote down anything but legacy rates, retirement ...etc good on you

In my opinion, as long as the nmb doesn't conclude that the company is unfairly forcing you guys to work for an unreasonably low market rate, they simply will not allow a strike no matter how long this drags on. I have a hard time seeing them allowing it, especially if Spirit offers a blended of Allegiant, Frontier, JetBlue..etc rates, which in itself is probably a substantial raise.

If you're allowed to strike GREAT ON YA, go get that $$$. I simply don't see that happening. If nothing terrible happens, in 10 years, Legacy NB CA could have rates of $350/hr and JetBlue at $310/hr. You'll still be topped out at ~$190 while refusing the company's offer of $315/hr because it's not "industry standard"

But hey, that retro check will be huuuuge.

Oh, and every month without a contract, you're the one doing the industry a disservice by being the biggest anchor of all the ships.

Who's to say this isn't management's plan to begin with?

Frontier and jet blue are in negotiations for a new contract and frontier is on a bankruptcy restructured contract. If their rates are used to "blend" then this thing is DOA with the spirit group and probably won't even get to a TA.

Also allegiant's contract is by far the worst of the recent contracts approved, that pilot group was desperate for raises and approved it the first chance they got. I'm pretty sure You won't see that happen at spirit.






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But that blend will still be a "substantial" raise, dude!!! :rolleyes:

This idiot has to be some type of management troll. I think its time for everyone to stop responding to him or her, and put him on your ignore list.

Agree

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Yes it will. Another testament of how we much we currently DONT make compared to what we should. 100% RETRO!!

I was talking to a Spirit guy on my jumpseat recently and we were discussing your 15-year longevity pay scale and Frontier's 14-year scale.

I don't want to get into the genesis of your 15-year scale or Frontier's scale. But since our airlines are the outliers in an otherwise 12-year longevity scale standard; do you know if your MEC is hard set on standardizing your longevity?

It seems like a logical last minute grab by our scumbag management groups to propose another 15, 16, 17 year longevity scale. Maybe it's a moot point, I don't know if ALPA would let that fly.

Feng, you use reasonable logic, so let's use some logic here...After a TA is reached, and a new payscale is put in place. What is the airline obligated to do under RLA obligation for those employees that worked under an expired contract? Retroactive pay (as it relates to the new payscale). Who would have to pay? The company. So why do you thinks it's pilot's that are the only party concerned about the paying out of lump sums of money? Spirit WILL have to pay the difference and though it may be subject to a payment plan, it will cost the airline-so it is a planned expense that is being taken into account. Why would you think otherwise?


1) You misunderstand, the term ULCC is slang. The term budget carrier/ULCC/LCC etc have always related to the customer's purchasing power. Southwest airlines was the first 'low cost carrier'...but have they operated their business around your alleged core principal of "low labor cost"? Perspective; Retail shops like the Dollar Tree& The dollar store are budget suppliers that cater to consumers with optional or decreased buying power...does that mean they pay their employees less than minimum wage or less than a comparable convenience store employee? Of course not. The flaw in your logic may be that you haven't realized that historical FACT.

2) Don't infantilize yourself by mentioning how little you could care less about this outcome. It's inflammatory (which you have every right to be), but more importantly, it negates the point you've tried to make. Are you an adult pilot? Do you fly for a living? If so this outcome will affect you. Regardless of the outcome, this NMB will set a precedent for future labor disputes (the same way past NMB's have set legal precedent). What is truly asinine is that you have come to a forum that is filled with uncertainty and you try to make a point with sarcasm and cynicism. Do you realize that? Guys telling you to go away are no match to the self-inflicted negation of your own attitude. Really is weird.


Once again, you are completely wrong in this sentiment. It is void of any historical fact. First off, not every industry falls under the provision of the RLA. A coal miner's labor dispute isn't an RLA labor dispute. Additionally, just because a past TA included wording for a release of liability of a retro check, does not mean retroactive pay isn't dispensed. The TA will address this issue in addition to the NMB prior to the TA. Secondly, where are you getting your information from? It definitely seems that you are making your reply up out of thin air. "The amounts were small"-no, lump sum checks of thousands of dollars are pretty normal. To quote Walter Sobchak, "you're out of your element".


Yeah here we go, you are clearly just pulling this stuff out your ground-hole. The RLA has established a timeline. It isn't upto the NMB to determine if a strike is allowed or not. They just report to the President what the labor situation is and their findings to prevent a disservice to the American people. The labor group will be allowed to strike so long as it respects the timeline of the RLA. I highly suggest you read...anything...just read anything, because the thought of you being a functional and coherent adult pilot (even at COMM/CFI level) is concerning. "Good moral character" suggests support of a fellow pilot group from jump-seating to NMBs.So why troll pilots that are going through a rough patch under the guise of offering an opinion? Dumb, plain old dumb. If I didn't know any better, I'd say your content suggests your a jealous flight attendant.

Damn the fight is on!

Negotiating down to 12.

Thanks. Good to hear!

Sorry Pedro, it's not my job to financially support the business model. That's your job to figure out, just like it's not my job to track down paperwork. That's ops job. Shame they suck at. Oh well, not my problem.

Wow. Feng. I don't even work for spirit, and reading his "asinine" (see what I did there?) posts annoys me.

There is no way he's an airline pilot since he speaks to undercut the industry. (Maybe a corporate pilot/teachers pet/management wannabe for some Fortune 500 big shots though). He's probably not spirit management, because that would be too obvious, and an unacceptable risk given that this page has been used as evidence in court. No, he's a lawyer. He uses good words. He's good at painting you the picture he wants you to see. I'm guessing he's F&H, but not assigned to spirit, or a staffer at some other union busting law firm, and he's just on here to get his jollies by poking some union pilots in the eye. His concepts come directly out of the F&H union busting playbook for what it's worth. I say the best response is quit feeding the troll, just ignore him and walk away. Every time you reply, it gives him another chance to reply.

I sincerely hope you guys get a great contract.

Great post... Thx dude

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HOLY COW!!!

Never have I been acused of being so many things in a single paragraph. A corporate pilot, a ?teacher's pet?, middle manager at a F500, works for FH, staffer at a FH competitor, a lawyer...but not Spirit management. And definitely not an airline pilot.

Thanks for the kind words sir, but have you considered that I use "good" words simply because I'm not a half wit?

Your smart....****

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.....sigh.....