Getting tired yet? I can do this all day

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You guys keep saying "industry standards", which carriers would you use? USDOT Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS.GOV) classifies Spirit in the same group with Frontier, JB, and Virgin. From what I know their salaries are "mediocre" at best.

Another brand new profile trying to manage down our expectations. Are you a troll?

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No just asking a question.

Jb and Virgin are in negotiations and the frontier contract is a bankruptcy contract. Don't really count them...

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So who would you guys use?

Dal, swa, ual, Hawaiian and, yes they do use f9 and Virgin and jb, but when you average all those out, it's way higher than where we are right now. Spirit management cannot subsidize their profits off the promise of cheap skilled labor. They could 10 years ago, but this market will not allow it. If they do, they will plant this company in the ground.

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Really Delta and United? I hope they do use them but I just don't see it. There is ONLY one reason to use Delta and United = Airbus operator but there are multiple reasons not to. Average 12 year CA between all you mentioned comes to ~ $217 per hour. That's only 21% raise from your current 12 year CA pay. Rumor has it you guys were offered 30% already.

Lol... You are a troll. Why not dal united. They do the same job, same planes and same routes. I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but that's bunk...

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Call me whatever you want man. There are many reason why same professions don't pay the same. In your case Spirit is NOT a Legacy Carrier. Spirit is on par with companies such as Allegiant, Alaska, Frontier, JB and Virgin, sorry bud NOT American, Delta, nor United.

Which numbers are you talking about?

In any case I hope ALPA stands their ground and gets you guys a killer contract. Soon!

Why would anyone, other than a management troll try and reason that any group of pilots is worth less than another. Your just setting the anchor lower and hurting yourself. Like I said, move along troll!

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I'm a troll because I'm realistic? That's fine. Best of luck and good luck.

Good day...

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The industry:
Delta
United
American
Alaska/Virgin (actively negotiating and will see an arbitrated contract
in a month so we are making assumptions on what
they will get)
Jetblue (actively negotiating so again we are not going to use current
compensation but make the assumption they will secure large
raises as they've historically been close to the legacies)

Not included:
Frontier (bankruptcy contract and actively negotiating. We don't
include them because coming from bankruptcy you don't
know where they will land and you obviously can't compare a
bankruptcy contract to spirit that has no idea what to do with
all the money.)
Allegiant (for the most part not a competitor as we they don't fly a
similar route map. We are using airlines with the same
planes on the same routes.)

You can't include current compensation from airlines that are negotiating at the same time. It's very reasonable to assume they are negotiating and will secure the same thing we are so you have to use that in the analysis. To prove we were being fair we were using current Alaska and Virgin compensation until the merger and their expedited negotiation process because Virgin was just starting the process on a first contract and to my knowledge Alaska wasn't negotiating yet. Spirit management messed up by allowing the industry to climb again with that merger and as a result our ask went up.

Speaking of the ask:
Industry standard or not if you choose to not agree with our "industry", it is not only affordable it is profitable and spirit could agree to every last word we have proposed and then some and not have to change a thing about how they do business. It's the definition of reasonable. What's unreasonable is expecting a highly skilled workforce that is the backbone of your business to come to work for far less compensation than those at your competition. It's not only unreasonable it's bad management and the shareholders and the board are going to see that sooner or later. Hopefully it's not too late. One thing is for certain, we aren't taking less than industry standard and will walk when the time comes if need be.

What's funny though is that I'd wager the house that IF Frontier, Allegiant, Sun Country, Miami Air, JetBlue..etc had far higher compensation than the legacies for whatever reason, you'd be screaming that Spirit is nothing like the hub/spoke of the legacies, have a different revenue structure...blah blah blah and should be peered among those careers. And I'd think that case would be more convincing. Whatever happened to pilots are pilots and we all do the same job? I guess that's not applicable when it doesn't fit your narrative.

You'd don't get paid something because your employer can afford it and still be profitable. That's not how it works.

Time to copy and paste this on the other thread :)

You really are a piece of work. Can you not take a hint? Go away. Your opinion is that of a management stooge. Go work on your resume so you can be a big boy ceo instead of the lackey intern playing on internet web boards...

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I can play that game too! Buzz off!

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Please ignore him, Squeaky.

Sorry, can't help myself...

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Its pretty obvious who the management trolls are.

No sane airline pilot questions those who are demanding Industry Standard. Real ALPA brothers & Sisters try to raise each other up, not bring each other down or manage expecations.

Simple troll solution...put them on ignore. It has worked in the past. If you don't feed the trolls they will go back under their bridges fairly quickly.

Hey you all please stop feeding the troll, Feng. He has been a troll for a while, go look at some of his post from 2015. He was pretending to be an AA pilot. Once you all stop quoting him he will go away.

How is Ford and Harrison these days? Say hi and give Jerry Glass a punch in the nuts for me.

That's not how it works
Spend a dollar to save a penny will get you out of business

Oh I wholeheartedly agree. What if the stakes were flush a dollar down the toilet to save $2?

spend a dollar to save a penny------that would make a great new laynard......i need a new one, mine is brown with apu oil.....voc's don't wash out that easily.....

and speaking of that, f-ck retirements benefit for the new contract......we ain't gonna be around to enjoy it------https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK215288/

Could y'all please stop quoting Feng?

Delta 2000 pay=$290,000...we have a loooooong way to go to catch up!
$290,000 in 2000 → $411,800.00 in 2017

1. Click "User CP" at the top

2. Click "edit ignore list"

3. Fill in the blank (i.e. "feng")

4. Problem solved

So Legacy rates minus 5 percent ( 255 hourly rate for a 12 year captain)
Legacy match of 16% minus 5 percent ( 15% match)

WILL get you a TA tomorrow and that's spend a dollar to get 2 back as you said

Problem not solved. The ignore list only hides the original post but has no effect when the post is quoted.

A: 16% minus 5% is not 15%,
Plus it's not a match.

B: Stop negotiating in public

Instead of dragging your feet for years it would've been a lot smarter to take the 30% raise with current book and make it a three year deal with a me too clause after that point to take the average of your peers if they have increased by then.

It's far better to negotiate incremental improvements then swinging for the fences which rarely ever results in a home run if history is any indicator.

It's also beyond laughable to include legacy pay in your calculations and it will be laughed at. You'll never get released with unrealistic expectations and actually you'll play right into management hands - the longer you hold out for a home run the longer they stockpile cheddar. As for not being able to staff that is also laughable as your classes are running nonstop and are full, so clearly compensation is not an issue attracting new hires.

30% would leave us behind JetBlue and even Allegiant by a good margin. Pass.

Not to mention the 30% raise came with massive concessions. I think taking a 30% raise with a loss in almost every single other section is a HUGE mistake.

A "cost neutral" 30% raise. All in favor say "goodbye transition and 4 days off, hello PBS"!!!

Queue name calling...moron, idiot, management troll, F & H staffer. You know, the usual. I somewhat get why have to to take the position that they do even though it's completely non sense and they know it. But at this point I think these guys have repeated their rhetoric so much on here that they actually believe it at this point. They'll eventually just ignore you because truth hurts too much.

Jeez you moronic H&F/ management trolls are getting desperate to come on APC trying to manage expectations. bwahahahaha

They really are getting desperate

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Sounds logical, right? Unfortunately there, Einstein, that was never offered.