Our Washout rate is now over 8%
 

This is really frustrating to hear. This is really unfair for all involved.


These inexperienced guys are just in over their head and it isnt really their fault. A washout on their record is really unfortunate.

Our instructors(whom all do one hell of a great job) are having to go above & beyond and it still isnt helping some.

Lastly, its not good for our company and I hate to see us wasting resources on hiring guys who cant get through training. Its wasting valuable time & resources and how the hell are we going to grow by 60-ish guys a month if almost 5-10 guys a month wash out.

10 guys per month would be almost 20%...just sayin

Yeah I typed 10 I dunno why, lol. Make it 5

I think the growth plan only requires about 22-25. We are hiring 60 just to keep up with attrition and training failures

Solid business plan, SMH

Yup, the failures are "baked" into the hiring numbers.

Caveat Emptor, new hires....This is exactly why people have been telling new hires to stay away on these forums, its not all about just being negative as some have said, its being brutally honest.

Spirit's training process has been and remains the same. They tell you this in the interview and you know exactly how many sims you will see when you show up, heck you know it when you accept the job. If you think your 2000 hours won't have any issues, its on you.

I don't feel bad for anyone who doesn't make it because everyone needs to make decisions in this industry and realizing your own limitations is one of the most important skills we can have.

Spirit could careless if a pilot fails. They have NOTHING vested. Thanks for coming to Spirit here's your pay for the week.....$7

Has anyone ever received an additional sim session before the checkride?

My understanding is you get to do over two training events before they terminate you. Those could be sims they could be paper tiger and a sim or any combination. If you need three EXTRA events they let you go. The wash out rate is people needing three. Many get through that have retrained one or two, or even pinked their type. You may have a job in that situation but you are stuck at spirit for life.

This shows how really bad the training program is combined with the lack of talent we are currently attracting. When close to 10% need to do over more than two entire events you know something is wrong. Who knows how many guys are on the line that just barely squeaked by. I also know of a guy that had some training issues but made it through in the left seat and then was let go on IOE because he couldn't make it all work in the right seat after extra IOE.

This info is what I've been told and seen happen but I don't know if it's the official process for training issues and ultimately termination

Most were not captains at their previous job but some were and that scares the crap out of me for the flying public on regional airlines and also people spending thousands on a 135 charter. The latter thinks they are getting a premium product yet the captain can't make it through training at cheapo air.

Thanks a lot.

How much less do you think Spirit could care or are you saying the pilots are failing because Spirit is careless?

He’s saying it doesn’t matter to Spirit because they financially plan for a high washout rate. And anyone they can squeeze through at $38 an hour is icing on the cake. Career integrity? They probably love type busts so it makes it harder for said individual to leave this god forsaken crap hole

I’m tired of hearing about inexperienced new hires or not being prepared when you arrive. I’m not going to give away too much about myself on here. But I’m not. 2k pilot. I have way more than that in 121 PIC. Point is, you’ll receive an email saying to log in and begin doing the CBT and even suggests an order. That’s the emphasis they send out. I know to learn the memory items limitations. As for flows, without the manuals, where do I get that? I have friends here and was able to get a jump on it, kind of. But there are things or obligations that some need to some people have to meet before they can show up to training and can’t devote a full week or two before hand. When you arrive at trading and you’re told,” forget the CBT’s, concetrait in flows. Then different instructors teach different, sometimes conflicting information. If you are unfortunate enough to be paired with a weak sim partner, with the ****ty instruction, it is a recipe for failure. I do f care how hot shtt you think you are. It’s a mine field to navigate on your own. This “training” program is the worst I’ve seen. I do take my responsibility for my short comings. But it isn’t all me, or this wouldn’t be the first problem I’ve had in training. Quit bragging about how this is a “real” airline and operate it like one. Stop throwing a pile of books and useless “study sheets” ( that the examiners hate btw) and saying, learn all of this in 4 weeks and prepare for 4 sims, that you seat swap in and suck it up. Seriously, 8 hours in the left seat, part of which is wasted on Bogata and crap you won’t see on the checkride. Give me a break. The problem isn’t all me

In my observation, there are two kinds of folks who struggle with training. Those who just need more time, and those who suck.

The former are often great pilots, maybe far better than average once everything "clicks" for them.

The regionals are starting to try to accommodate the former, but unfortunately it's often hard to discriminate between the later and the former in training.

All he's saying (indirectly) is that the term is "COULDN'T care less".

Which makes sense considering “HE” is a worthless troll

I buy this. My new hire training was a less than optimal experience because the only constant we had in the paper tiger/CPT/touch screen trainer portion was an "instructor in training" who in fact did (or at least tried to do) most of the training while we were officially being trained by a revolving door of 6 different instructors who spent as much time trying to instruct him as they did us.

IMO the people who make it through the training program do so in spite of it, not because of it. Personal responsibility is of course a big part of successfully completing any training but our current washout rate would seem to be the result of a program that relies heavily on the students and even more so the instructors going above and beyond to make it work. It might work with students who bring significant previous experience with them but 2000TT/one year in the right seat of an RJ new hires lay the weaknesses of the program bare.

Let's put it this way, the instructors don't even have a syllabus to teach from only a list of items that must be completed. No explanation on how to teach it. So basically each prebrief can be wildly different for the same training event depending on the instructor. Let's say some are better than others.

That works on IOE but not in the systems trainer and the SIM. The airbus while popular around the world is very different for pilots that have not flown it before and explaining how it works should be taught a certain way. If the standard isn't working, sure the instructor should be able to adapt to help the student but there must be a standard to start. Right now it's "go teach them hydraulics for 2hrs any way you want"

I had a great instructor and kept him all the way through and it was still hard to grasp the both systems and the flying because of the compressed time and the airbus being "weird". Some are not as lucky.

so I recently completed training. Some stats...everyone passed the oral on their first try. statistically 25% of our class failed the check ride..they retrained and passed. Varying type of experience, but all 121 guys. One guy was unfortunately let go due to weak systems knowledge and weak flows - 135 guy..the class before ours I think I heard a couple people busted the ride, and the class after ours a few failed the oral. To my knowledge everyone who "failed" an oral or ride retrained and passed...

As far as instructors go, its all luck. I was EXTREMELY lucky and had awesome line pilots teaching me, where some of my classmates had the majority of their CPTs and CSIs taught by "ground instructors" some of them who have never flown a jet, but are picked out of 141 CFI jobs, given a type, and told "teach indoc for 2 years and then we'll let you fly". I will give them enormous credit for what they do (you could never pay me enough to teach indoc) but its a unfortunate fact that the new hires who are being taught systems and flows/procedures from people who have 0 turbine time are definitely getting sauced on portions of their training.

Some good news, some instructors are currently trying to reorganize the training syllabus and I got to grab a sneak peak and they are sincerely trying to make it better. So give them credit and just give them some time to get it done.

Overall, you need to come prepared with flows memory items and limitations down cold on day 1. Agreed everyone tells you something different and all you focus on is Flows for the first 2 weeks, but having the limitations and memory items, and having watched the CBTs already at home, holding that info in your back pocket makes the program much more manageable. It is completely up to you to put the work in.

All that being said; its a great feeling getting out of that sheraton!

Thanks for the update. And now 25% of your class has no options outside of Spirit because they have a 121 pink slip. And that 135 guy who probably shouldn’t have been hired in the first place because he’s used to going to training as a customer, now probably doesn’t have a job to go back to. I have no idea why people keep showing up to this place with the training risks involved.

We've got guys now just leaving during training. They don't come back to class or no show during training events. It's better to just walk away and act like it never happened. Very sad.

121 failures are not the end of the world. I had two at a regional and still got hired at a legacy.

Actually it is the end of the world....not good for the ole resume!

I personally know a guy who failed his type ride twice, was released by the company and has now finished his probationary period at FedEx.

Just like everything else, it’s just one factor in many. During his FedEx interview, he owned up to it, said it was ALL his fault, didn’t try to lay blame on the system, the training, the instructors, etc; and was able to turn it into a positive experience by what he learned and how it actually made him a better aviator.

A 121 failure isn’t a good thing, but it’s not the end of the world or your 121 career.

So how does the hydraulic system differ so greatly in the 320 from other Part 25 aircraft out there?

I'm not going to defend the newhire program; it's deserving of all the criticism being laid upon it on here and elsewhere. But the reality is you're going to get CBT training on your own at most places now. At least they pay you for the trouble, though, as NK expects people to show up having done it for free.

The only systems unique and deserving of one-on-one instruction are automation, flight laws and maybe the ECAM system. Everything else is much like the last 2-3 airplanes you're typed in.

Of course, the program assumes you've been around 2-3 types of Part 25 jets, hence the problem. Regionals teach Jet Basic 101, no one else does.

Blaming the training department for failures is rationalizing the fact that we are hiring lesser qualified pilots and this is the result.

Guys busting orals in greater numbers than before? 5 years ago there wasn't a nice oral study guide, now there is. So how is training for the oral gotten worse? The majority of our APDs are the same APDs over the last 5 years, asking the same oral questions, and guys failing more than ever before. Guys are getting a much longer leash in training than they did 5 years ago, some allowed to redo the entire ground school. Never would you see that 5 years ago, but they need bodies, so they keep "sending them up" until they can pass.

Its been said time and time again, this is not a training program that is designed for low time pilots with little to no experience in 121, crew environment, fast paced training, high stress, jet systems.

When 25% of a class fails their check ride, this isn't the fault of instructors, its the fact that the training system is and always has been a fast paced rush job and it is glaringly obvious this doesn't work any longer.

Ill be honest, I couldn't care less that guys are failing. Its not like they made the training program harder, its easier than before. Let guys fail and leave, show the company that pilots are not as easy to attract as hanging a "Now Hiring" sign in the window down in Miramar.

Until the company decides to pay the pilots, guys will continue to fail because $38 will only get you so much in todays market. So let them fail, sounds cold, but its our only leverage we have now, the school house. Failing a training program isn't the death punch it was before and many of these failures can easily go back to a regional and make more money. While there, they can build up some more experience that they may have lacked at 2200TT when they applied here.

I wasn’t really trying to reference hydraulics specifically because you are right it’s not much different. My point is when you go to the CSI training events or any event for that matter the briefing which is where the majority of the instruction happens is completely different depending on the instructor. They have nothing to go on, no syllabus. It’s a joke. They all teach off their own notes and what they think is important.

Completely agree. I’m obviously not a fan of the program but it is doable when you hire experienced pilots. We can’t attract them in today’s market and now captains get to give extended OE for no override.

This is a load of crap.

Oh so true. The trips where the FO needs little to no "guidance" is such a rarity now vs 2 years ago.

Not to mention their entitlement attitudes. Had one douchebag complain about the training dept the entire time yet he could barely talk on the radios. Wore his cool aviators clipped onto his epaulets though.

Actually the lack of a defined, detailed syllabus is intentional. That way the information presented CAN be tailored to the student pair as needed. If you provide a rediculously detailed syllabus you really turn the lesson into nothing more than PowerPoint regurgitation. I've taught it both ways and seen it.

When teaching systems (CSIs), I make it very clear to the pair that I'm not going to spend time on lights/switches that they can learn on their own or basic complex jet systems like how a pack works or how a de-ice/anti-ice system works. That was what their regional or FlightSafety class was for. I spend time on procedures and/or abnormals that involve those systems of the day.

Automation, flight controls and ECAM get a good detailed lesson as deserved.

Indeed it can be valuable for the instructor to have that freedom based on their assessment of the students. The problem I see with this technique at Spirit is the way training is scheduled with potentially not having the same instructor more than once. My new hire was 5 years ago and we had a different instructor every session until sim and same for upgrade 2 years ago. Impossible for, and not fair to an instructor to have to try and recognize the student needs based on a first glance.

the instructors recognize this and are actively trying to change it. The instructors are awesome. The couple of guys that failed the ride in my class - the "25%" weren't young guys who did a year in a jet and got on with spirit, they were seasoned guys, and whether it was just a stupid mistake they made or maybe didn't understand the system, i don't think their failure was all of spirits fault for hiring them or all of the training departments fault or even all their fault, like anything else it is a combination of things, and each situation is different. but the statistics I gave for my class might be a little misleading from the numbers, i just want to say they weren't "brand new young guys with no experience"

That’s your opinion and you are entitled to it. I personally know 135 guys that didn’t take the program seriously because they were used to Flight safety. Didn’t stay at the hotel to study in bullpen and went home almost every night. Used to being a customer and washed out. Spirit used to have a huge bias against corporate guys for this very reason when they could afford to be picky. We hired almost none because the few we did struggled. I’m not saying it’s all but 135 guys are more of a risk than a previous 121 guy. When we get a good contract (I believe we will) I guarantee we stop hiring corporate pilots.

As a former "135 guy" who has not only passed the training, but effing killed it here in the Spirit training program, I thank you for not including all of us in your comments.

I personally went through initial training and type ratings at Flight Safety and SIMCOM. In both cases I would see pilots walking around with their Bermuda shorts and Hawaiian shirts with sunglasses hanging from a strap around their neck, not carrying any manuals, kicking back with their feet up, and doing everything they could to skate through training. On the other hand, there were pilots there that were dressed appropriately, who hit the books every night at the hotel while their families were at home wondering why their parent was not coming home, paying attention to the instructors, utilizing GFS and SIM time to its fullest, taking notes, and working hard to make the best of their training event and give their 135 operators the best value for their money.

So, I would say that the distinction with our failure rates at Spirit when hiring and training "135 guys" is not necessarily that they were "135 guys" but that some people, whether training under Part 61, 141, 142, 135, 125, or 121, just don't take training as seriously as maybe they should. Some skate and some don't.

Ps. When I was in charge of hiring at my 135 company, I hired furloughed and retired airline pilots, corporate pilots, flight instructors, and brand new off the street pilots. I had equally as many training busts with furloughed airline pilots as a group as I did with the other groups. Our in house training program was unintentionally almost exactly the same footprint as Spirits training program. In my opinion, a pilots success in any training program is more related to their ability to work hard in training, their attitude, and their willingness to learn than it is to where they got their previous training.

Well said!

You judge by the cover a lot. It's all about the individual. Sometimes it's best to just keep your opinions to yourself

I've seen it too. Folks who's previous employment did not use the sink-or-swim firehose technique struggled. This included 135 and some folks from overseas, who had in-depth, lengthy (like 6+ month) training programs which were spoon-fed. But it ultimately came down to the individual... the tough got going. Although they sure whined a lot.

Actually, he/she is correct. I am an instructor at one the large school houses and a pilot at Spirit. There is a huge difference between customers and employees in training. A vast, vast majority of our clients do not take the training seriously, are there for a mini-vacation, and if it were an airline program I would bet 75% or them couldn't pass it. The quality of the client coming through for initial training right now is worrisome.