Long Haul ULCC Potential here?
 

Could Spirit be successful in the ULCC long haul market? 115 so airplanes now, current book 161 I believe. This is probably enough support 10 to 15 widebodies to South America and certain places in Europe maybe even LA to a few markets in Asia. Besides NAS, does anyone think it’s a true possibility with the new A330 neo or the A330-800, or possibly A350s? Certainly down the road a few years but if anybody was going to do it it seems like it would be us as the largest ULCC of North America. Now that the Pilot contract is behind us and they have their cost structures It would seem like now would be the time to try so long haul international stuff.

My "***" isn't interested in anything that stays aloft much longer than 5 hours. :D Besides that, I'd rather see 100 of anything than just 10-15 new frames. We still very little, relatively speaking.

Don’t read this as anything more than face value but you guys are going to be acquired long before there’s a chance for widebodies to show up on property.

Someone will want to and it will just make you that much more senior on the narrowbody. Win win

Unlimited codeshare.

I could absolutely see this happening. Norwegian was seriously underestimated as well as Azul. Spirit literally can do anything they want....If money can be made,they will do it.

I gather you have not been following Norwegian. They are losing their ass on the long haul. Many are starting to question how long they can sustain their losses.

As long as it isnt SWA.............wouldnt want to get “Air-Tranned” 😐

True, but they are growing very quickly so that can be expected. 787’s are being added like wildfire with the seats going empty. Doesn’t mean they won’t be for long, just adding more compasity. Granted, I do give you they are losing loot. The ULCC model will work long haul if managed correctly, just need the right management.

Yeah, no kidding. I hear ya :rolleyes:

Hopefully not much longer.

It’s been tried many times. The problem with ULCC long haul is you can’t generate the cost savings over traditional airlines. Customs and catering dictate turn times. Aircraft are expensive. There is only one place to get a significant cost advantage. Take it from labor.

Norwegian makes money in the summer. They lose money the rest of the year. They shouldn't have problems getting through this summer, as they just completed a private placement. I'm not optimistic about their existence 14 months from today.

Bingo. And legacy transatlantic tickets are already cheap.

This pretty much sealed the company's fate: https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2017/03/31/sir-freddie-laker-feature-norwegians-b737-max-tail-fins/

I hope they tank and that none of their pilots find work elsewhere. Flag of convenience must die

Not a very nice thing to say about your fellow pilots who are just supporting their families and causing absolutely no problems for you, your wage package or career at all.

it is not a flag of convenience carrier either. They are using an European Union AOC and American carriers due to open skies agreement can open bases in Europe if they so choose and fly point to point in Europe which EU carriers cannot do in the US.

Open skies allows EU carriers and US carriers to fly between any two points in Europe and the US and the agreement is actually more in the US carriers favour.

So this argument that they are a flag of convenience and causing job losses in the US and wage reduction is an absolute rubbish argument.

Its called competition and to wish your fellow pilots a failed career which results in their families suffering is pretty pathetic!

You do realize that by becoming a ULCC long haul airline you are taking pilot jobs from airlines that would be hiring you. If you want to stay there your entire career, go for it.

I guess if the tax laws were the same across the EU I would agree with you. They are however not hence the reason people have issues with their business model.

Absolutely untrue. Any pilot flying to put other pilots out of business by flying well below market rates, like NAI Captains flying for $10 per month, are 100% hurting all of us. Not much different than scabs really. Its the first thing we hear during contract negotiations when we talk about pay and work rules.

Scabs my ass!! A scab is when you go on strike and they step into your shoes and do your job.

NAS is a LCC where as UA/AA are major legacies with completely different business models.

Legacies make money of their premium product and cargo so your argument does not hold water. As NAS has no business or first class they are not affecting your rates at a legacy.

UA for example are only competing with NAS with regards to economy seating and that boils down to just basic competition. US majors need to stop whinging all the time and improve their product.

Sure, sure. Still flag of convenience.
To be clear: A flag-of-convenience airline is a carrier that is established in a country other than the home country of its majority owner(s) in order to avoid regulations of the home country. Flags of convenience are often used to decrease labor costs and undercut established markets.

If you think that Open Skies benefits US carriers more than European carriers, you don't know the first thing about how large the US air market is in comparison to Europe.

As for Norwegian, they're in worse financial shape than I initially thought.
They've had an interim CFO since last summer - never a good sign for a company.
They are now trying to sell aircraft that they subleased to an Asian carrier. And pretty much every asset that they have looks like it's up for sale.
They have an "Extraordinary General Meeting" on Friday 13 April (good date to choose :rolleyes: ) to get a second, larger stock dilution approved. https://www.norwegian.com/globalasse...of-the-egm.pdf
They're under investigation for accounting irregularities. https://leehamnews.com/2018/03/07/no...ve-accounting/
They're adding 25 new aircraft in 2018, further draining liquidity. I'm expecting to see them cancel those deliveries if they're able - probably too late, since the aircraft have probably already had some airline specific options installed.
They're losing money running mid to high 70s load factors.
Their RASM is declining while CASM is increasing.

That's a whole lot of red flags.

As for the pilots that went to Norwegian, there were plenty of pilots on this forum who warned against going there. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them go fly for Avianca once Norwegian closes its doors.


Cool. You're totally clueless. https://www.norwegian.com/us/travel-...premium-cabin/
Those tickets are priced to compete with business class.

Why have multiple certificate based in multiple countries? Why not have one certificate in Norway? Why not use Norwegian pilots in Norway? Why place pilots on individual contracts flying as 787 captains for not much more than Spirit fo rates?

Flag of convenience.

You’re completely out to lunch.

I’m just fine at Spirit, buddy. We place an order for wide bodies, I’ll buy you a bottle of you’re favorite booze...

Convert some of the remaining orders for the 321LR with 4100nm+ range puts most of Europe in play from DTW and the North East, and most of South America from FLL.

Agreed. I think with the advent of the 321LR, they would be the most likely candidates as opposed to 330s or 350s. Fleet commonality, and common type would be a no brainer for Spirit. As you mentioned DTW being able to reach most of Europe and a nice little build up of BWI going on as well.

Has anyone seen the pics of what looks like a more premium big front seat pair complete with legs rests and power ports in Spirit branding floating around? Definitely looks like long haul, low cost, premium seating. Not trying to start rumors, these could very well just be a manufacturers sales demonstration/mock up for Spirit. But I guess they could be something else.

Just a matter of time. Post the pics if you get them.... Curious to see.

Interesting. Looks like WOW’s first class seat on the 321/330

Never heard such rubbish in my life.

Clearly you know nothing about open skies.

https://www.forbes.com/2007/03/26/op...l#13d5f98b3c7b

As for Norwegian premium economy, it is just that...PREMIUM ECONOMY. You cant compete with business or first class if you dont actually have the product.

Try researching...it really helps...I promise!!

So if for example Aer Lingus in Ireland, BA, Virgin Atlantic, Ryanair etc used the Norwegian business plan under EU rules and open skies agreement thats fine because they are in their own country using the exact set of rules (EASA Standards) with regards to labor law, tax, safety etc that Norwegian are using.

However when Norwegian does it (Norway part of European Economic Area) it is a problem and somehow are now less safe and undercutting all workers in US airlines.

Give me a break!!

US airlines need to up their game and their product and embrace competition. Nobody is stealing your jobs or forcing your wages down.

Quite frankly I dont care if NAS survives or not but stop the whining and the talk about undercutting you and your wages because it is just simply not true.

I don't understand the Open Skies Agreement? CLEARLY, I'm not going to post an 11 year old article that was touting the Open Skies Agreement before it even came into effect. And the 'author' of that article is an international consulting company that is paid by clients with an agenda. But it's really nice that you would post that garbage which doesn't take into account the relative market size of US domestic aviation vs European domestic aviation.

Rubbish? What are you - a foreign national who landed a job at SkyWest and is trying to get on with an airline here in the US that pays better? There are lots of foreign nationals who come to the US to fly - another data point as to the much larger size and better working conditions of the US air market vice Europe and the rest of the world.

Norwegian peddles two cabins (classes of service): Economy and Premium. One can clearly see that on their booking website, where they clearly label each product as a different cabin. Premium Economy, for those airlines that have that product, do not list it as a separate cabin from economy.
Premium seating is priced ~3x the price of Economy seating; too great a disparity to mistake it as premium economy.
They also include lounge access to those that buy Premium class seats - a perk not associated with any economy bookings, only business or first class bookings.
If, as you are arguing, this is Premium Economy, why doesn't Norwegian use the term, Premium Economy? Because they clearly want to sell it as pseudo Business class.

Research - using an 11 year old article written by an EU-based consulting company peddling a client's point of view to justify your opinion is NOT research.

Norwegian loses money when load factors drop below the mid-80s. Which is 3/4 of the year. They are dumping seats onto the market, pricing tickets below their operating cost. It absolutely forces down my Profit Sharing so yes, they are forcing my wages down.

I will celebrate the day they go out of business.

So please compare NAS wages to AMR, DAL and UAL if they are not undercutting wages.

Better working conditions...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

No paid leave (Europe 5 to 6 weeks a year) plus days off, rubbish medical insurance, no sick days where you still get paid, can be fired at the drop of a hat (much better protection in Europe, Aus, NZ etc..) On this front Europe wipes the floor with US working conditions

A seniority system that benefits the airlines, not the employees except the top 1% in base.

Seniority forces you to stay where you are because if you leave for another airline you start at the bottom. What other industry on earth forces you to do that?

Would a senior network engineer at say Microsoft leave for Google and start on the help desk....ERRR NO!!!

Best working condTions.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

In the western developed nations US working conditions are considered some of the worst in the world....

HAHAHAHAHA....I cannot stop laughing!

Different products, different routes, different business model. Nobody is forcing the majors to drop ticket prices...the consumer decides what level of service they want.

Norwegian and Spirit are Costco...DAL/AA/UA/BA/QF etc are Farmers market...supposedly better qualicy for a premium price.

Using your argument Spirit A320 pilots are undercutting UA A320 pilots...

Yeah right!!!

... and yet, here you are, flying for SkyWest as an expat. Why did you come here instead of staying in your home country and fly there?

His answer better be to get the experience necessary to get on with a carrier in his country or his argument is full of chit. Of course, he could stay here and fly B787s out of KFLL for regional airline rates.

I thought his entire rant was hilarious. I get 5 weeks/yr off, no complaints about my medical insurance, and get paid sick time (albeit only 5hrs/mo, but it's still enough that I'm able to bank some in case of a long term medical condition), plus I have LTD.

As far as the seniority system, I prefer it over rostering like they have in a lot of foreign airlines because that system favors buttkissers. I consider that system much more skewed to favor management.

As far as Egg320's future, reading his past posts, it sounds like he can't get hired anywhere past SkyWest. I'd bet that he's got an app in with Norwegian.

On the 787s out of KFLL, Norwegian is running out of ways to raise cash. Pretty soon, there should be some slightly used 787s on the open market - I'd expect those KFLL jobs to vaporize in the not too distant future.

I have worked both in Europe and (currently) in the US, so I am qualified to reply to this BS:
Paid leave: I had 32 days in EU, worked 10 on 5 off (10 days off/month). To get 21 days off I had to take 16 days off, so 2 blocks of 3 weeks. I now have 3 weeks, and will get 4. Each of these easily get me 3 weeks off. And I only work 15 days a month average.

Medical insurance: might be more expensive on average here, but I was paying €90/month in 2004 just for me, that would be at least $150 corrected for inflation. Now $87/month for 1 person through company sponsored plan.
Also I definitely have paid medical leave here in the US, including 60% pay till 65 if I lose my license.

Job protection:
If you don't do your job at Ryanair/Wizz/Norwegian or any of the other scumbag operators that hire through crewing companies like OSM you have ZERO job protection, and lots have been fired for starting unions. I enjoy job protection through my union.
Also took a 20% pay cut and people were let go with no severance package back in EU. Got my full paycheck and 8 weeks severance pay when I was let go from my last job in the US.

Seniority:
Aside from the fact that ALL European legacy carriers have seniority systems, and companies really couldn't give a rats ass about who flies which plane, who gets what schedule or who goes on vacation when as long as the schedule gets covered, senioritys protects all pilots in the company. My new-hire class in the EU was half DEC (no, not me) and that was the norm, even though there were FOs on property with enough experience to upgrade. How effed up are you to see that as a positive thing.
Also when working in the EU I had zero input in my schedule and was regularly denied vacation request. Now I bid for a schedule/vacation, 50% on the list, most of the time get most of my request.

Not even mentioned by you:
Forgot getting on with a legacy carrier if you are not a national from that country with a license from the national flying school and younger than 30 years old so the only jobs available are for crap paying low cost carriers that rebase you across Europe against your will. All US Legacy carriers hire from all over the board.

For pilots the conditions in the EU are vasty inferior to the USA right now, yes, if you flip burgers at McDonald's you are better off in the EU, so maybe that is a better fit for you looking at your post.

PS forgot to mention most LCC make you pay for training, and then give you a 0 hour contract. Not a single US operator does that.