NavBlue it is...
 

PBS choice is made. From the little I know it seems a good choice, anybody have experience? Also info on how to operate?

I’d bet that if you’re senior and figure out how to use the software your schedules will get much better. If you’re junior they’ll get worse. Middle of the pack and it probably won’t make much of a difference.


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They'll get worse?

Half the lines in the system have 13-14 off and min credit.

They can't get any worse

LOL now that's funny.

NavBlue it is...
 

Even the most garbage lines today still have some weekends and holidays off. Maybe a commutable trip or two thrown in there. With PBS be ready for those 6 day stretches over the weekend all month with 4 days off in between. Granted if none of that matters to you you’re probably not in for too much of a shock. But you are right, the lines have been pretty bad and it being summer and all this is when they should be better...


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Yep. Senior guys will have all weekends off, junior guys will have zero weekends off. The vendor choice doesn't change that.

I know you guys are scared but honestly don't be. PBS has been absolutely fantastic for me as a junior and mid level seniority bidder. You're seriously going to love it and wonder how in the world you ever suffered through line bidding.

I had it for 11 years and it sucked like a black hole powered Hoover.

The take away? It’s all about how it’s applied.

This is 100% correct. It isn’t pbs it’s the contract that’s behind it. I think with our rigs and days off it won’t be that bad. I’m assuming you had pbs at a regional like I did and sure it was terrible but it wasn’t PBS’s fault. It was the garbage contract that we had. 6 day stretches followed by 1 day off at the monthly transition followed by another 6 on wasn’t uncommon. But here the contractual rules will prohibit stuff like that from occurring.



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It's all in the rigs. 100% in the rigs. Were you at Republic? Were you there before the 2015 contract?

NavBlue it is...
 

Yes, and left before the new one.


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Like I said, I have no experience with PBS, but the only reason junior guys at NK have weekends off is BECAUSE of the 6-5 on, 4 off way of scheduling, this 10-11 day cycle against a 7 day week guarantees you will get some weekend off. At SWA all schedules have a start day (meaning all trips on your schedule that month start that day, with either all AM flying or all PM flying): Senior guy starts a 3-day every Tuesday morning, home and done every Thursday afternoon, junior guy starts a Thursday PM 4-day start and gets home every Sunday night....

That’s great for Southwest but doesn’t really apply to us here.

But the best way I could describe PBS for someone who hasn’t used it is you’re bidding for specific trips that meet your preferences rather than for whole months.

Some trips are going to be better (higher credit/weekends off/less legs per day) and some are going to be worse (lots of low credit days/working weekends/lame overnights).

You’ll soon learn that your average daily credit is the most important thing with pbs. The more credit you get per day of work the more days you’re going to have off and at home. PBS is going to build your schedule and stop once it gets to a certain credit window (~78 hours or whatever company decides is min monthly target window) Once you hit that window it’s done and stops adding trips. If it can build a schedule to 78 or 80 hours in 10 days you’ll have 20 or 21 days off. So you can see that 8 hour or higher credit days are ideal but probably hard to get (senior). If it takes 16 days of flying to hit that credit window you’ll only have 14 or 15 off.


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NavBlue it is...
 

Another thing to add is the trip/paring construction is huge with PBS. Efficient trips are everything. You get more days off for the line holder, more reserves because more of the scheduled flights are covered by line holders thus making more opportunities to drop a trip due to the reserve grid being green. Hopefully management lets the scheduling committee have some say in the pairing construction and (crossing my fingers) hopefully not every pairing is built to the minimum rig.


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Thanks for the info. My personal scheduling requirement is just specific days off (more than total days off), and it will be mostly a set of days per week I need to be home. I have read the 203 page Delta NavBlue gouge but it is still not clear to me how to get all my prefs the right way. Guess I am lucky we have some time to learn..

i was, left in 2012, junior lineholder my last 4 years, training or vacation meant rsv for me because the system couldnt build be a line around the pre-awards. Even with waiving all the “days off” rules. Yes with the rigs and 4days off im cautiously optimistic that this wont suck. Between 15 years, almost evenly 1/2 pbs and 1/2 line bidding, line bidding was far and away better quality of life for me.

NavBlue it is...
 

Average daily credit is still important in your case. The more days off you can get the more picky you can be about where those days off fall.


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Thanks, that does make sense.

So for the Republic alumni who were there pre-2015 contract, you will understand how massive a difference rigs make when I say that as a 30%-ish line holder I held 17 days off, 85 hours, all weekends off, commutable trips. That's the difference rigs can make. That's why PBS isn't the end of the world if paired with good rigs.

Our rigs, read 3.5:1 and 5hr DUTY PERIOD average and not CALENDAR DAY average aren’t what I would call “good”. Slightly below industry average.

Better than what we have now so hopefully the pairings will get better.

But....but.....I have 4 days off between pairings that’s all that counts. [emoji849]. It was stupid to keep the four days, if we had lobbied for a higher number of min days off the problem fixes itself. My wife works 3 on 4 off, not bc of the contract saying 4 days off (different airline) but bc of min days off guarantee for the month.....


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Agree! Swa has 12 day off min, but most lines don't come close because they have average hardline does not work more than 13.5 days in 31 day month, so AVERAGE days off is 17.5, vs NK 14.5....

Did you get a duty rig, as well (2:1 or better), or just trip at 3.5?

Is the 5hr duty period only applied to the trip, not individual days (3 duty periods equals min 15hrs credit, but a 3-period trip that credits 3hrs one period but 16hrs total means you don't get the extra 2 hours)?

I though southwest had min 15/16

2:1 duty rig

And yes your example is correct on the 5hr duty period average

Yes I agree that our rigs could be better. Having a real min day would be a massive improvement.

it's not a min day off, it's an average max workday per lines

say there are 10 lines and the average is 13 max workdays. 8 lines have 13 workdays. can one line have 18 workdays? sure, but then the last line can only work 8 days so it can average 13.

make sense?

Unfortunately the number one parameter for the optimizer (from what I was told) is to "limit soft time," and not to build efficient pairings. Apparently Crew Planning doesn't care about efficiency. Not sure how this will enter the mix with PBS, but if that soft time limit parameter remains at #1, how will the end result look? Will a majority of the trips default to the rigs, or will the rigs be such that the optimizer will need to be coded different? I don't know and look to the ones that have worked under a PBS system. All I do know is that if Crew Planning can save a $ over efficiency (sometimes even safety ala +1 redeye legs) then they will do that.

Do you guys have any language that guarantees a line to a certain percentage of pilots in each base? The reason I ask is that your 4 days off between flying language used to be managements problem; they had to build the lines. Now, it’s the pilots problem. If the system can’t build a line with blocks of 4 days off then you’ll get dumped to composite lines or reserve if you don’t have composite lines. The only other option is to waive your guaranteed 4 days off.

You would think that more efficiency benefits everyone but who knows...


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Those are for reserve 30/31 day months, for hard lines:
Days in month - average days work/line
31 13.5
30 13
29 12.5
28 12
Way better than what we have

That is awesome. But hey 4 days off :rolleyes:

I know, right! I have talked to the union about it but I don’t think they heard me, as far as I know SWA is the only one, but I really think it is way better than min day off, especially if set at 12....
I would have taken 15/15.5 days work/month. Last month in LAS average 13.9 days off :mad:

Even the most garbage pbs systems out there have a distinction that basically says: 100 pilots, 80 are guaranteed lineholder.

So if you're 75 and that happens, too bad, you're a lineholder and there's nothing they can do.

Huh? I’m confuse by this. With PBS you can be #1 and bid for reserve if you want, it gives one more junior guy a chance to be a line holder, just like line bidding.

Right. The point I was making is if you do not INTENTIONALLY bid reserve in PBS, even the ****tiest PBS system CANNOT give you reserve if you fall within the lineholder threshold.

So when someone up there said "system won't build you a full line because of 4 days off, now you fall to reserve or relief" is just an inherently misunderstanding of PBS and it explains why so many here are afraid of it.

Actually that's a very correct statement at least with NavBlue. 4 days off min is kind of pointless because you can bid for 4 days off in a row or 8 days. It doesn't mean your going to get it. If you're senior, that's great you will get it. For those that fall close to the lineholder / reserve bubble, you will waive the four days in order to get a line. If you do not have a backup bid that waives 4 days off in a row and you are on the cusp of a line, it will give you reserve. That's what hard coding a min day off in a row will do in the system. Unless there's some serious customization of Navblue, that's how the system will operate.



As far as pairing construction goes... yes the company does want high efficiency trips. It wants pilots to fly. It does nothing to have pilots sit in hotel rooms. What the company doesn't want is to pay pilots to not work (rigs, min day etc.). They will always try to optimize out of soft time. What makes things difficult is the route structure we currently have. It doesn't make it easy to get the efficiency either side is looking for. And why it's apples and oranges to compare SWA with us.

What would be considered senior with PBS? 10, 20, 30%

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