Calm down girls. Neither of you will have to fly with the other one.

Seems to me it’s more bragging than saying our new hires should get paid more.:rolleyes:

You can cherry-pick individual statements out of a long discussion to give almost any appearance but unfortunately for you the conversation is still on the server and anyone who wants to can look back and see the reality.

My assertion was simply that it would be better for pilot unity if first year pay was high enough that those coming in from the regionals weren’t having to take a pay cut to do so, and anyone who bothers to look back will see that’s precisely what I was saying. I wasn’t picking on NK in particular, F9 doesn’t do much better by their newbies and UPS actually does worse. In fact there are quite a few REGIONALS that pay their newbie FOs (counting signing bonuses) considerably more their first year than do NK, F9, or UPS. THAT isn’t even my opinion, simply a matter of fact. Nor was I even asserting that NK pay ought to be brought up to legacy or even SWA FO first year pay, simply that I didn’t think it ought to be a reduction from what most people were getting in the regionals. I conceded that in the long run people were certainly better off moving to any of those three majors - I CAN do the math - but simply opined that it would be better for pilot unity if some attention were given to eliminating the huge gap between second and first year pay in ensuing contracts. Now that may be naive, but until someone explains why I shouldn’t think that I’m afraid I’m sticking to it.

Now why that put a burr under the saddle of you and several other people on here I’m not really sure. But I flatter myself that I’m a reasonably open minded individual so I am certainly willing to listen to your argument.

So can you succinctly explain to me why you believe that new NK FOs should receive less pay their first year than new FOs at Republic, Air Whiskey, QX, and several other regionals receive AT A REGIONAL?

For added credit, could you explain why you and a few others appear to believe I’m an SOB for even asking the question?

I await your response with bated breath so please don’t take too long - I might pass out.

I’ll make this very simple. The issue is not someone saying “our new hire should get paid more.” The issue is that someone such as yourself, coming on here to brag about how you are making more than our new hire. It’s not a question when you make a statement such as the one i quoted, and that you seem happy about it. If you think it’s so bad, why would you even consider applying here?

At this point in the conversation did you even read the lengthy well reasoned reply? You answered why you consider him an SOB but completely glossed over the question of year 1 vs year 2 pay disparity. Why, as pilots, do we tolerate this crap? Oh I forgot. We are pilots.

It's your money! Use it when you need it!

Call 877 CASH NOW.

Plane Coffee

I agree with everything you're saying, however, because of Spirit's Training Pay, our first year pay only looks better than UPS's if you are only looking at the hourly rate. Between (planning on) 3 months of training pay, and a lower monthly guarantee, Spirit comes in last. No one should be proud of first year pay here. Well, except those who brag about how they survived on last contract's pay. 45% 45% 45%!

I think you guys are talking past each other. I don’t think there’s a single pilot here who doesn’t think that pay should be higher (not just for new hires), but across the board. How much negotiating capital should we put into it next cycle?

He didn’t gloss over anything. He pointed out how hypocritical it is for this guy to mock first year pay and how he will make more at Compass, while actively seeking a job to work at Spirit. As someone perfectly stated, “do as I say, not as I do”.

As to your point about 1st year pay vs 2nd year pay disparity. Would you rather them lower second year to bridge the gap between the two? Because it seems the gap isn’t your issue but the starting pay is your issue. This has been discussed on here before you even started here and yet, you applied and took the job because you did the math and realized it still a no brainer for you to leave a regional and come here. I’m sorry if the $20 increase in year 1 pay from last contract still isn’t sufficient to maintain your regional pilot quality of life you were accustomed to, (Mesa? “)

I look forward to seeing you and everyone who wants higher first year pay on the picket lines in a few years as we fight for our next contract. I’m sure the fire for higher first year pay will still burn bright in all of your hearts while 40 of us walk the picket line again.

Oh good, so we’re starting this up again...

Would new hires prefer a $30,000 training bond for their A320 type rating? Aside from the ability to hustle, $58/hr and $100/hr at guarantee work out to be pretty darn close if you throw in a $30,000 training bond to be repaid over year one.

Ideally some negotiating capital will become available to get new hires paid guarantee while keeping lodging and per diem. Any other bump to first year pay is a next-contract issue. To get that little bump for trainees will probably take the new-hire well drying up and with legacy hiring temporarily slowing that probably won't happen this year.

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji1787] it's funny (and sooo sad) because it's true! At the picketing in FLL I went to, we had just over 50 pilots I think. Of course almost a third were other airline.

But all the angry typing on APC and WhatsApp helped us out enormously last time. [emoji848][emoji849][emoji19]

The regionals pay more first year for one reason and one reason only.

They have no choice.

Our classes are full and there’s a line out the door. So clearly management does not see a burning need to improve first year pay.

And frankly, we have more important issues that need to be addressed with our limited negotiating capital during the next round of negotiations.

I agree with the NC. First year pay is a management function, not the union.

Would I love to see a higher first year pay? Of course. Everyone here would.

Am I willing to give up negotiating capital for it instead of, say, Calendar Day rigs? Or redeye override? Or removing the “international destinations” limitation?

Nope. And neither would anyone else already on property.

I’m tired of this “negotiating capital” mantra that you guys have been spittin’ since ALPA put it in your head last negotiation cycle. It won’t take squat to get New Hires Health Insurance from Day 1 and a measly raise to an already pathetic rate plus higher training pay. All I see is that dang Lord of The Rings Gollum character and his “precious” (negotiating capital) every time y’all say that.

If you don't believe contract negotiations are purely quid pro quo, I don't know what we can tell you.

As the lyricist Cage the Elephant said "Ain't no rest for the wicked / money don't grow on trees / I got bills to pay, I got mouths to feed / Ain't nothing in this world for free"

All I see is someone who doesn’t understand how negotiations work.

At least you’ve got plenty of company.

“That won’t take squat” = very little capital spent

What’s an extra 3 months Health Insurance?

What’s a bump from $1,000/month Training Pay to $3,000 for 3 months?

Two items that wouldn’t have been a drop in the bucket, but “we don’t want to waste negotiating capital on guys that aren’t on property.” Guess what they’re on property under those conditions and they’re your ALPA/Spirit brothers and sisters.

Reserve drops and flexibility given up for One Reserve block drop per year.
Hard Lines and Transition Conflicts given up for PBS.
All given up for old (prior to a CBA) JetBlue payrates +$1.

Maybe it’s you guys that understand your own self worth.

This (and I’m currently on first year pay). Sure, I’d love more money but I don’t expect people who have been here a long time to give up anything so someone who isn’t on property (or a member of the union) can get a $30/hr raise. Contract negotiations are certainly quid pro quo, no company is just going to roll
over and give pilots everything they want.

I personally would have been happy with health benefits day one and no training pay. Having to pay for cobra for 3 months was not cheap.


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Well, at least it sounds like the next round will be an easy win for the company. Give something, take something, and this place is always going to be better than a regional, and as long as there's that "line out the door" argument, they can keep dropping to ATP mins like last time, and the line just keeps getting longer. Who wouldn't pick Spirit over Mesa if the requirements are the same and they just need a body in the right seat?

You listed some nice things we may want next round and I've heard some common others on the line, so here's an example of what we want:
Cal Day Rigs, Redeye Override, better international pay, stronger scope, better LTD, 16% DC, higher hourly rates, better per diem, better reserve flexibility, higher instructor override, 8 hours for ground school, etc.

Do we have a list of things equally long to give them back for your "quid pro quo"? Our strongest argument seems to be people won't come here or apply next round if things aren't "good enough" here, but at this point, it is significantly than a regional, and if the company is willing to (like last round) drop the mins to the same as the regionals, and hire almost everyone on the spot, what do we do? What is there to give up if something must always be traded? No one has been able to answer that.

Maybe speak to your reps? Negotiations are a few years away still though, and besides, management is probably busy watching future bookings right now.

Hey, does anybody have the link to Airline Management Central? The site where upper management from each airline posts online discussing their strategy for handling contract negotiations? It's so frustrating that when investors ask them this stuff on earnings calls, they usually say they won't comment on it. If only I could find that website where they talk strategy on an open web forum, where anyone without even a login can see it.

[emoji19][emoji849] Well we still can dazzle them with the 50 picketers I guess. Never mind that we love playing poker with our cards turned face up.

I'll take that as you have no idea either. Nice reply.

I’m not going to mention negotiating specifics here but I wouldn’t say anyone already here doesn’t find first year pay and health care as a priority. I do.

I want to fly with the best, not the legacy leftovers. We hire many great guys but if you can’t see that we hire many guys that simply cannot get hired at a legacy or southwest then you aren’t paying attention. Maybe it’s a bachelors degree or total time or something else.

Add in the fact that with the bypass rate for upgrade is quite high today we can have CA that spent one year at a regional and is upgrading here in just more than two years. Now that guy is flying with a new hire that came here with only one year of regional experience or corporate. That has led to a big uptick in FOQA events. That’s factual.

While for many Spirit is their first choice for some it’s not and it’s simply where they can get hired. That’s a side effect of low first year pay, training pay, no health insurance, no positive space home during training. You may think that’s the company’s responsibility but they will always say pilots meet and exceed FAA standards if something bad happens. We know there is a difference.

I personally also like going to ATL/ORD/LAX/LGA with someone that has been there a bunch prior to spirit and can talk on the radio like it’s old hat instead of spending 30 seconds writing it down and now the controller is calling us back and then we read it back wrong and they have to correct us, or they flip us off ground in ATL instead of running ramp on 2 and now ground us calling us but we can’t here them. Just makes the trip harder than it needs to be. So IMO raising first year pay does have direct and passive effects on those already here

This is so incorrect. Trying to conflate an extra $20/hr for first year pay will somehow prevent a future accident is ridiculous. I think you perhaps haven’t been paying attention; Spirit has always hired people who couldn’t/haven’t been hired at a legacy; that’s why they are at Spirit, they called first. Doesn’t matter if it’s a college degree or something else, it’s just logic, if they got hired here, it’s because the couldn’t get hired anywhere else. That’s why they are here. How many people had a job offer from a legacy and turned it down, not flow, an offer, and said “I’m waiting for Spirit.” Maybe 1% of our list? This includes you, me, and others. Spirit called first, seemed like a great opportunity, and we took the job at $38.50 an hour. Guys 15 years ago did the same thing and took the job for $40 an hour here, guys are still doing it for the $60 an hour now. This isn’t a new phenomenon.

Don't confuse pay with quality. Legacy carriers pay more but that doesn’t translate to quality. They have/are hiring/hired thousands of pilots to “check boxes” for their HR department and hiring many who have a few years at a regional and now sitting right seat in a heavy, about to do a ocean crossing at UAL or a transcon at Delta.

FOQA events up, we are getting bigger. Shouldn’t be a surprise that events are going up.

Want people who have flown into LAX/ORD/LGA because they have experience, what about the large military contingent getting hired at legacy carriers? They don’t have experience at these airports and manage to not “crash”. So I guess the airline with the highest first year pay has the best radio operators in the business? When your FOs mess up on the radio in LAX, do you look at them and wonder how awesome your FO would be if you could replace that $60/hr guy for a $90/hr guy? You really think that’s the case?

If first year pay is to rise, it will happen if more pilots want that. That’s the simple truth. If every pilot who has been on first year pay continues to care about first year pay once off of it, we would have 2400 pilots currently who are demanding higher first year pay next contract. We don’t, why is that? Because guys don’t care once on second year pay, that’s a fact.

“I want to fly with the best, not legacy leftovers”

GMAFB. You were legacy leftovers, most all of us are. Stop looking at your FOs and discarded trash, work with them, help them with the radios if they have issues, stop with the nonsense.

Funny you guys are arguing about negotiations on the next contract for first year guys when the industry as a whole might be completely collapsing this year.

Thats a good point. House is on first and we are worried about the paint color

I think people got a bit fired up for the elections to try and influence their reps, but that level of angst just becomes white noise to the average line holder if protracted out for 2.5 years to negotiations.

And then hen you add in the this looming storm.

I hope to all things holy that you're one of our new MEC members but sadly I bet you aren't.

How about.... enough to get it increased to a respectable hourly wage? I can’t stand hearing guys ***** about the quality of new FO’s and their lack of professionalism, yet don’t want to give up precious negotiating capital to get first year pay up. What kind of candidates do you really think this airline is going to attract long term?

You completely missed the sarcasm.

Industry, it's the world. People are just getting stupid.

By the way:

Myth: Face masks protect you from the COVID-19 virus.
Fact: When you are sick, regular, surgical or cloth masks help prevent droplets from coughs and sneezes from infecting others. The N-95 respirator mask requires fit testing. It is not necessary to wear a mask if you are not sick.


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The same candidates that we have now because our name is not Delta, United, or American.


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New pairings are out. ORD FO lost 2 projected lines.