If anything , NK pilots should gain relative seniority, we don't have small narrow bodies, and a much higher order portfolio. The Reason JB pilots are complaining about stagnation, and want more is the reason we should get more.

Yes. Jblu A220 and E190s should be integrated below A320 pilots. This is standard Status Category methodology. This is no different than when you see Legacy mergers where they heavy pilots are integrated above the narrow body or regional mergers where RJs are integrated above props. And no, this doesnt mean a senior 190 pilot would be integrated junior to someone they are senior to, but the slot will be. Seniority list integration methodology has become much more predictable with ALPA carriers since they revamped the merger policy. DOH is a dead integration method, staples are a thing of the past; it will be a stat/cat integration with maybe a slight consideration to DOH if the JBlu merger committee can make the case that the disparity between the DOHs on the list will be too drastic. But then again, this is up to the arbitrator(s)

LOL you gotta be trolling. There’s a reason so many regional FOs only use spirit as a type ride to get a call from the legacy carrier. Everyone talking about QOL at spirit like there isn’t an attrition problem with pilots leaving to other airlines that don’t have the dropping to zero stuff everyone is raving about. So no a spirit airline pilot should not gain any relative seniority, even keeping it a relative seniority shuffle favors the spirit pilots massively. There should also be a slight factor of what airline is getting purchased added to it. I know so many think the ULCC is a way of life but again Spirit is getting purchased. CASH! Not as high and mighty as you may think.

Why do you keep saying CASH in every post? JB is having to take out mortgages on their airplanes to make this happen. Maybe you didn't see that.

Sort of like when you get to the end of monopoly if you are losing

Because it wasn’t the deal with frontier. Because some think that spirit business model is the only way to make money or gain seniority as a pilot. Because some are misinterpreting my point that I’m only defending the idea the integration should be DOH towards the bottom of the list as thinking Jetblue pilots are superior. I won’t speak on others but doubt that’s the case with the majority of JetBlue pilots. So then the spirit pilots are defending theirs talking about a stagnant airline (which isn’t true) and how the ULCC model is superior. I’ll look forward to putting it behind us and trying to bring down competition for our joint sake.

Couldn't agree more!

I expect nothing less than a valiant effort from both sides to get an ISL that favors their own pilot group. But after the list is done, that crap needs to stop.

The lawyers and expert witnesses will present their cases based on numbers and facts, not feelings like APC.

I think any reserve pilot that's about to get displaced should be placed at the top of the list and given positive space commuting and home basing and a personal pan pizza from Pizza Hut (1 topping) before every pairing.

Oh you should see how I’ll get when we are negotiating a JCBA. Lol.

plus we will need to negotiate a new CBA before it’s all over……hello leverage.

Uhm, no. Nobody is leaving NK for JB (or the other way). NK pilots hired 3 years ago, based on looking at orders were looking at line holders as a captain on a A320 in 5 years, not sitting reserve as an E170 captain. Career expectation is a thing.

ULCC has nothing to do with it, and your pay rates aren't nearly enough to make up for it.

So what I read in this is that JetBlue should have the advantage since they’re a superior airline? The poster is correct, based on Spirit’s order book relative to its size, a Spirit pilot currently has higher career expectations (ie seniority gain) than a JB pilot with JetBlue’s total orders relative to its size. It is what it is. The fact that regional FOs use NK as a rating factory has absolutely zero bearing on the integration other than the fact it apparently makes you feel good to point it out.

By comparison, in a NK and F9 marriage, the F9 pilots would have have greater career expectations than NK pilots. F9 is smaller, yet has a larger order book resulting in higher seniority gain for a current pilot.

I do agree with you that the purchasing airline’s pilot group should gain a slight edge, but it should be negligible. ALPA has their merger policy and it will be followed if the time comes. I don’t think, however, it considers which airline’s passengers have the nicer carryon luggage.

Don't knock Hefty Lawn&Leaf bags until you've tried one.

B6 had a spirit guy a class or two ago apparently. And I know a spirit guy who came to B6, and then UA.

190s are going away. If the merger goes thru they’ll be gone in probably 2-3 years max. Without the merger, at least 10 will be gone next year, at least 20 in 2024, the bulk of the rest in 2025, and the last couple lease returns are Q1 2026.

If the merger happens, they’ll likely be gone before any NK pilot is flying metal on a B6 certificate. So an NK pilot has zero career expectation of flying an 190. And no B6 pilot has a career expectation of flying an E190 in 5 years. And only a few do in 3 years.

So let’s talk A220-300. In an apples to apples seating config, it’s the same size as an A319. And at B6, a 220 pilot makes more than an NK 319-321 pilot. And B6 has more 321s and more on order. So, from a career expectations standpoint, it’s about a wash at best, and potentially even skewed in favor of B6.

I think the arguments for SLI will mostly be around DOH and pre-merger percentage.

Still waiting in an actual logical reason b6 thinks they should destroy our seniority. I asked this in another chat looking for actual arguments, not emotional reasons, only got one answer and it involved the retirement numbers.

BeatNavy- the fact the 190s are going away is good for you guys on the basis of status/category but bad for you on the basis of career expectations. That part will take into account current number of aircraft, number aircraft on order, and number of aircraft scheduled to be returned. That last part is not good for the equation.

Thank you. Yes that was my thought.Teddy Bendo Miller will have to fix stuff before we get to the JCBA. I don't think B6 wants to hear about 40 pilots/month attrition for the next 2 years. They want 4000 pilots to come with the deal. And F9 and NK will have to solve this problem together.

Having been through ALPA merger training myself, it’s alarming how spectacularly uneducated most people are in this thread, on both sides, about a policy that is readily available publicly and has significant precedence available from numerous previous mergers.

I said this when it was F9/NK and the same applies if it ends up being B6/NK, the JCBA has a far greater impact on all of our careers and futures than how an arbitrator will piece us together. Stop all the d!@k measuring and realize it’s us, all of us, against them. They revel in the notion that we would be fighting each other instead of them.

How do you have an “slight edge” that is negligible?

Exactly and if we do merge we need each other to take on the company.

So 2 guys went to JB, and 1 hasn’t left yet, got it.
Based on orders, and investor publications, JB plans to grow 3%/yr for the next 6 years. NK plans 15%, and if half of that happens, it’s still twice what JB is planning. Pay difference is $10/hr. Upgrade a year earlier, and it pays the difference for the next 10 years.

curious what a jet blue pilot loses in actual terms with a relative seniority integration? Vacation slots? Seat? Schedule?

I am a 2011 B6 hire if the list was straight relative senority i would be slotted with 2016 NK hires.

Just be ready. My friend at Alaska got hired in 2001. He is now junior to VA pilots that were hired in 2008, by 100s of numbers. It seems like arbitrators weigh more heavily towards relative seniority than DOH, especially since we all basically have the same career expectations.

I believe Alaska/Virgin was a 60/40 longevity/realitive weight.

Well, we started around 4200 this year and are planning on hiring 961 (for a net gain after attrition of 600-700 of that if we hire that many). A tad bit more than 3%. As far as deliveries, for the next 5 years that’s around 19 planes a year net after retirements/lease returns, or about 6.7% fleet growth YoY, with increased utilization (220 will have higher utilization than 190, requiring more pilots…and the LR/XLRs will also require more pilots due to being augmented). Not that ASM growth matters to pilots, but due to the upgauging, that’s also going uo double digits per year. So, 7+ % a year pilots for the next 5 years minimum unless they start retiring more planes with no replacement orders, but we are understaffed anyway, so it’ll likely remain 600+ a year (greater than 10%) for the foreseeable future. 961 is 21% of our current list. Factor attrition and call it a net of 500-600 this year it’s still 10-15%, if we net 700 from starting with 4200 (the goal) that’s over 20%. No matter how you crack it, jetblue isn’t stagnant, and is a lot closer to ULCC growth than 3%, and might actually surpass it this year depending on hiring and attrition.

unless it’s a TRO, then APC and pilots opinions somehow matter, lol.

That seems to be an emotional response. You still have the same relative seniority, so your same bidding power and you still have your longevity for pay rates.

I don’t think it was emotional it was factual. But yes, nothing gained or lost by either group in that scenario except for “expectations”.

Except “expectations” count under the ALPA guidance for SLIs. From the ALPA merger policy:

It is an emotional response to a fact. I’m not arguing that a straight relative integration doesn’t place 2011 b6 hires with 2016 nk hires. I’m saying that the perceived harm isn’t as bad as b6 guys seem to try to make it out to be. Our entire careers are based on seniority as percentage in our base/seat/company. Career expectations are an increase in company seniority percentage, relative seniority keeps everyone on that same trajectory. The major adjustment I’ve noticed would involve retirements. B6 has more than NK so the sli needs to account for that. I just don’t want this to end up being toxic and the statement that b6 gets screwed because they are placed next to this guy from NK doesn’t help. How about being placed next to a qualified pilot, everybody gets paid more with better qol, and nobody steps on anyone to better their position.

This +1 and some
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​​​​​​Don't get distracted, eye on the prize. Get ready to rumble!

No emotion just answer to what jetblue pilots would lose by realitive seniority (I would no longer retire #2). In the end I have no real say in how a list would shake out.

You know better than that. I'm a Jetblue guy in my last 12 years. My current expectations are that I will be very senior here in my last seven to eight years. In a relative seniority integration I would be mixed with pilots hired 10 years after me. That means the average age of those pilots would be 10 years younger than me and I would never attain a senior position.

Thats why longevity matters.

We shouldn't get emotional. I expect Spirit pilots to fight for relative because the vast majority of you are so new. We will argue for DOH and somewhere in the middle we will meet. That is how it will work and the rest of this talk is just a divisive wast of resources.

i get that. But in actual terms of quality of life work/personal what would you lose?

an nk pilot who lost 15% would stand to lose quite a bit as compared to now

As I said above, longevity on average equals age. Seniority is not static. Losing a position to a pilot 5-10 years younger than me means my expected seniority changes drastically to the negative.

You will be very senior still, the company will be double in size. Also you should know that hire date and age have nothing to do with one another. Same class can have a 25 yr old and a 50 yr old. It should not be either end of the this argument but somewhere in the middle. It’s also crazy to think that everyone at b6 wants doh and everyone at nk wants relative. Ask your top guys how they feel about doh. My original comment was to try to get some of the logical arguments as I have not been through this before and the statement “ I don’t want to be placed by a ‘16 nk hire” is not the argument, it’s the emotional response.

I don’t see why anyone is getting twisted up about something that hasn’t been agreed upon by two carriers much less approved.

I don’t think anybody is getting twisted up, just looking for a discussion. Guess looking for insight on apc probably not the best idea.

There are plenty of folks getting twisted up. It’s in every thread.

There is an average hire age of Major airline pilots. I believe it is about 37 years of age. That is why I was careful to use the word Average. Right now there are about 10 pilots younger and senior to me at Jetblue. With a relative integration there would be hundreds and they would all come from Spirit so No, I wouldn't still be very senior. I would be drastically hurt over time.

Our very Senior pilots aren't worried about the 20-30 guys you still have that were hired in the 90's. They're getting up there.