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Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Spirit (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spirit/)
-   -   First Week Openers (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spirit/139279-first-week-openers.html)

Bluedriver 10-01-2022 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 3505144)
It’s attrition that will force management to the table. As long as they have cheap labor coming in the bottom, they’ll take all of that they can get. And the attrition doesn’t depend upon shafting the newbies. Alaska has an attrition problem and they aren’t shafting the newbies. But attrition drove their management to the table with an offer. Is that the best possible offer? Probably not, but it’s a lot more money than NK pilots are currently making.JetBlue has an attrition problem, without screwing over their newbies. Even Frontier has an attrition problem, without screwing over their newbies any more.

But as long as NK can manage to grow by just hiring more newbies on the cheap, why should they worry much about attrition? Until it’s more costly to replace the people they are losing than it is to pay people to stay, they can afford to stonewall.

I’m not against all rates coming up, that ought to be the goal, but other pilot groups have higher rates than NK without screwing over their newbies. And as I said, give me one example of a major airline where the “we get leverage by screwing over the newbies” model has actually worked. Give me an example, not a hypothetical or wishful thinking, but an example.
So right now, management can just hire newbies on the cheap and solve their problem... Easy. Except management wants to raise 1st year pay, just 1st year pay. So clearly having a low 1st year pay rate doesn't solve management's problems???

Your logic fails the basic test.

Justabusdriver1 10-01-2022 05:31 PM
I’m losing money coming to spirit at this point. Coming for better qol and bases. But I have the expectation rates will go up to match and out pace regionals. The number of regional fos leaving to join spirit is going to dry up quick if something isn’t done

JulesWinfield 10-01-2022 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3505171)
I’m losing money coming to spirit at this point. Coming for better qol and bases. But I have the expectation rates will go up to match and out pace regionals. The number of regional fos leaving to join spirit is going to dry up quick if something isn’t done
Not sure there’s much the company can do. If junior captains are leaving, it likely isn’t because of pay. It’s more likely due to base reductions, quality of life degradation, and single fleet type stagnation. First year pay is criminal, but bumping it to six figures won’t stop the bleeding.

SoFloFlyer 10-01-2022 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3505171)
I’m losing money coming to spirit at this point. Coming for better qol and bases. But I have the expectation rates will go up to match and out pace regionals. The number of regional fos leaving to join spirit is going to dry up quick if something isn’t done
If you’re at a regional, it’s a pay cut your first year. You’ll break even in year 2. 3 and above (especially if you upgrade) you’ll make more than you could ever hope for at a regional.

I never understood this logic as people only have to worry about year 1 for….. 1 year lol

Excargodog 10-01-2022 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by JulesWinfield (Post 3505176)
Not sure there’s much the company can do. If junior captains are leaving, it likely isn’t because of pay. It’s more likely due to base reductions, quality of life degradation, and single fleet type stagnation. First year pay is criminal, but bumping it to six figures won’t stop the bleeding.
Which is the point. It’s attrition that’s the issue, and cheap new hires simply facilitate management to offset the attrition. Screwing newbies doesn’t gain us leverage, it loses us leverage.

Justabusdriver1 10-01-2022 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3505191)
If you’re at a regional, it’s a pay cut your first year. You’ll break even in year 2. 3 and above (especially if you upgrade) you’ll make more than you could ever hope for at a regional.

I never understood this logic as people only have to worry about year 1 for….. 1 year lol
Not quite. Break even point now is somewhere in the third year. Yeah you’re making more second year but you’re still playing catch up. Not to mention like others said 2-3 months of training pay isn’t even enough to live off of these days. Contract day one with reduced guaranteed hours would make more sense.

My point was the constant influx of regional pilots is going to slow as many who would have considered coming to a lcc like spirit are going to stay at their current position till they can go direct to mainline. Attrition might be the problem but there’s going to be huge problems on both ends. They’re going to lose that “cheap labor” source if they don’t at least match their pay or come close to it to keep people walking in the door.

Excargodog 10-01-2022 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3505159)
So right now, management can just hire newbies on the cheap and solve their problem... Easy. Except management wants to raise 1st year pay, just 1st year pay. So clearly having a low 1st year pay rate doesn't solve management's problems???

Your logic fails the basic test.
Unless NK management is smarter than you are. But tell me Bluedriver, if screwing new hires is a good idea, why do no other majors do it? Why does JetBlue pay their New hires $94 with a 75 hr Reserve guarantee?

And I don’t see paying a decent wage to new hires stopping B6 attrition much. You guys are losing FOs to the legacies too I hear when I JS with you. Junior CAs not so much. Why do you think you can pay your FOs a decent wage but it would somehow devastate NK? Same for Alaska and WN?

Your logic fails the basic test.

Excargodog 10-01-2022 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3505191)
If you’re at a regional, it’s a pay cut your first year. You’ll break even in year 2. 3 and above (especially if you upgrade) you’ll make more than you could ever hope for at a regional.

I never understood this logic as people only have to worry about year 1 for….. 1 year lol
The reason for the attrition isn’t the year one pay, it’s the subsequent pay that costs junior CAs and more senior FOs. And paying newbies a reasonable wage won’t stop that attrition. It just makes it more costly for management to fail to address it. That’s more leverage than simply screwing over newbies for the sake of tradition.

And yeah, it’s only one year, but you can say the same thing for EVERY year up until year 12. Why not screw over year six guys, if it’s only one year? That logic makes just as much sense as yours.

As for year three upgrades, you seriously think that will survive the SLI?

CLE to IAH 10-01-2022 07:02 PM
Finally after all this time on APC I figured out how to do this


learning has occurred!

Excargodog 10-01-2022 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by CLE to IAH (Post 3505209)
Finally after all this time on APC I figured out how to do this


learning has occurred!
Hey I recommended those who didn’t like my postings do this months ago. Glad you finally learned how.

Of course, you’ll never read this now…🤣


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