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Originally Posted by Lakeaffect
(Post 3522856)
The difference in QOL between a Line holding CA and a 1st year RSV F/O is night and day. I think this thread got off topic, we shouldn’t be talking about how awesome QOL is for line holding captains in base (it’s really good!) If some one coming to spirit now could expect that in 3 years, then yes it would be relevant, but I don’t think any new hire can expect that. It’s going to be a long time to upgrade and hold a line as Capt. for new hires, much longer than most airlines.
Of all the things to complain about here, that one should be pretty far down the list for most. Upgrade times? Completely different story and I'd agree it's going to be years for someone hired today. |
Originally Posted by SSlow
(Post 3522868)
Sure, but this whole "everyone is going to be stuck doing turns for the rest of their career" narrative is getting old and is severely out of context.
Of all the things to complain about here, that one should be pretty far down the list for most. Upgrade times? Completely different story and I'd agree it's going to be years for someone hired today. |
Originally Posted by onedolla
(Post 3522889)
Well, no kidding. JB isn’t going to run this place like the current team.
https://i.ibb.co/3NWjLgT/69-D05-BEB-...E66855-CFD.jpg Eventually they are going to have to up the pay for retention, and every additional aircraft is going to generate about six new CA slots. But no, three year and probably even five year upgrades are likely a thing of the past for a decade or two. |
Originally Posted by Lakeaffect
(Post 3522856)
The difference in QOL between a Line holding CA and a 1st year RSV F/O is night and day. I think this thread got off topic, we shouldn’t be talking about how awesome QOL is for line holding captains in base (it’s really good!) If some one coming to spirit now could expect that in 3 years, then yes it would be relevant, but I don’t think any new hire can expect that. It’s going to be a long time to upgrade and hold a line as Capt. for new hires, much longer than most airlines.
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Since someone mentioned upgrades.
Anyone know how ALPA treats recently upgraded captains as part of their merger protocol? Upgrade end of next year for example and the merger goes through 6 months or a year after? Stay as captain, downgraded, flushed out of base, etc… |
Originally Posted by FlyGuy2002
(Post 3522942)
Being junior commuting to reserve sucks ? Who knew?.. man that really surprises me. And I’m betting it’s pure bliss everywhere else but here too..makes me wanna go to united SFO bus street Captain reserve for the amazing QOL..
“What?! I’ve been flying for 5 years, what do you mean I won’t be a line holding captain in the base of my choice, making over $300k a year?! Did I mention I’ve been flying for 5 years and amassed over 2500 hours of flying!” |
Originally Posted by dickwhitman
(Post 3522949)
Since someone mentioned upgrades.
Anyone know how ALPA treats recently upgraded captains as part of their merger protocol? Upgrade end of next year for example and the merger goes through 6 months or a year after? Stay as captain, downgraded, flushed out of base, etc… |
Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo
(Post 3522953)
Prima Nocta is declared on all wives of newhire captains.
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Originally Posted by FlyGuy2002
(Post 3522942)
Being junior commuting to reserve sucks ? Who knew?.. man that really surprises me. And I’m betting it’s pure bliss everywhere else but here too..makes me wanna go to united SFO bus street Captain reserve for the amazing QOL..
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Originally Posted by Lakeaffect
(Post 3522975)
Go to United because you can be a 1st year Capt on the BUS, QOL will be maybe worse, but you’ll be making 5X what you’d make as a 1st year Spirit F/O. Or don’t upgrade and hold a line a lot faster with way more options, more pay, more retirement. Those things along with seniority progression factor heavily into QOL.
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Originally Posted by SSlow
(Post 3522978)
Go do it and then come back here to fill us all in, Capt
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A new hire today is a lot different than someone at the top 15%. Bring at the bottom of spirit/JetBlue also very different than being at the bottom of a legacy. Legacy is the much better option by far right now if starting at the bottom.
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People saying to stay at a regional versus coming here is on crack and should have their medical revoked..
- The benefits here are better. - I don’t have to commute to 18 days of reserve in the NE and sit in a CrashPad. - Long term, money is always going to be better here. - Retirement is WORLDS better here. - If I wanted to fly at my old regional, I had to pick up out of base and usually we’re 2-3 days trips that aren’t commutable on one end (if there were any trips at all). - Career progression is better. - More relevant type. I would rather deal with reserve here from the comfort of my home than a CrashPad so QOL is still a good reason to come here. For the people who think the regionals have out better, y’all could go there as DEC and “make a ton of money.” Let me know how that works out for you |
Looking at all of these regional rates just makes me scream "Don't fall for it!" in my head, directed at all of the guys at those regionals. Get the hëll out of the regionals, even if it means going to somewhere that you don't like as much. It is better to wait for a legacy call when you're sitting somewhere that has the same name on the paint of the airplane and the paycheck. Also, the regionals are paying these rates because they are desperate. With pay rates that high, their cost structure is going to put them out of business and/or the legacies will simply take that flying back and fly regional jets in-house because it is cheaper to do it in-house rather than farm it out to an expensive regional. Personally, I think this is just a sign that the regionals are going to finally go the way of the do-do bird. At long last.
As for why someone should go to Spirit (or JetBlue), there are lots of reasons. Someone said in a previous post that AA pilots make more. I don't think that's true. Their pay rates may be higher, but there is far more to pay than just the pay rate. I bet that a Spirit guy who hustles a little on the X list (VDA days for JetBlue) earns more than an AA guy. And their work rules suuuuuuuuuuuck. The grass isn't always greener. |
Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer
(Post 3523019)
People saying to stay at a regional versus coming here is on crack and should have their medical revoked..
- The benefits here are better. - I don’t have to commute to 18 days of reserve in the NE and sit in a CrashPad. - Long term, money is always going to be better here. - Retirement is WORLDS better here. - If I wanted to fly at my old regional, I had to pick up out of base and usually we’re 2-3 days trips that aren’t commutable on one end (if there were any trips at all). - Career progression is better. - More relevant type. I would rather deal with reserve here from the comfort of my home than a CrashPad so QOL is still a good reason to come here. For the people who think the regionals have out better, y’all could go there as DEC and “make a ton of money.” Let me know how that works out for you |
Honest question why would upgrade times get far worse at NK post merger? With both airlines with large order books and a desire to continue growth wouldn’t that increase the CA needs over the coming years? Are we talking 5, 7, 10 years?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by W6TRP
(Post 3523038)
Honest question why would upgrade times get far worse at NK post merger? With both airlines with large order books and a desire to continue growth wouldn’t that increase the CA needs over the coming years? Are we talking 5, 7, 10 years?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk When I started at regionals I was told a four year upgrade. Within a year, it was a 0 month upgrade. Things change quickly, either way. |
Originally Posted by baseball3792
(Post 3523043)
Same thoughts here. I don’t really think they’d get worse. FOs and junior CAs will keep leaving to go to legacy’s. More planes means more captains. I don’t see why much will change in the near future.
When I started at regionals I was told a four year upgrade. Within a year, it was a 0 month upgrade. Things change quickly, either way. Then think about it this way: if you upgrade, someone needs to take your spot. We don’t allow captains to fly in the right seat here. FOs leaving doesn’t magically make upgrades better when there’s not enough in the pipeline to replace them. |
Originally Posted by W6TRP
(Post 3523038)
Honest question why would upgrade times get far worse at NK post merger? With both airlines with large order books and a desire to continue growth wouldn’t that increase the CA needs over the coming years? Are we talking 5, 7, 10 years?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk How long would it take the combined airline to add 200 A/C, or grow by roughly 40%? NK is past it's massive growth phase, and our seniority lists are both fairly stagnant at the higher seniority levels. |
Well, the B6 pilot group - at least those aboard before the cutoff date - is generally senior to the NK group and has NOT been expanding 15% per year preCOVID. Both groups are relatively young and don’t have legions of imminent retirements. Post merger, many of the incoming aircraft will go to replace some of the older B6 aircraft and the retiring E-190 aircraft so the net effect on new guys will be a slowing of seniority by expansion. Just how much depends on whether they are able to control attrition but generally speaking once a CA gets senior enough to hold a line they generally stay put.
I’m guessing maybe a five year upgrade for someone starting today, which by historical measures is pretty good actually, but nowhere near the current opportunities for NB upgrades at some multi type legacies that incentivized their senior pilots to take early retirement at the onset of COVID and still have a decade of high age-related retirement numbers coming. |
Originally Posted by Lakeaffect
(Post 3523029)
If you get turned down by UA, WN, DL, AA, FDX, UPS, and JBLU then yes choose NK over your regional. It just makes more sense now than it ever has to wait it out a little longer at your regional to try to get on with one of those carriers, before coming to NK. They all have better pay and better seniority progression and are hiring like crazy.
The rates are nice and I’m definitely missing out on the short term, but the regional model is imploding on itself. No one should want to be there once it goes belly up. If it does survive by some miracle, concessionary rates will be negotiated in the recession. I get the whole “just wait it out for a legacy job”, but the reality is, the ones being hired from the left seat have 300-500 hours TPIC. If it’s right seat to right seat, their total time is high and have an impressive resume. I have a friend who’s a CA at a regional with around 200 TPIC, has done a one on one MTC at UA and still hasn’t been called for a formal interview. On the other hand, my friend had 2 people in her leave NK right after their type ride for a legacy. Idk what the sauce is, but staying at a regional isn’t the answer. I do, however, encourage people to do what is right for them in their current situation. NK is not the airline for everyone, but it sure beats a regional by a loooong mile. |
Originally Posted by onedolla
(Post 3522889)
Well, no kidding. JB isn’t going to run this place like the current team.
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Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1
(Post 3521952)
I’ve been told by no less than 4 people who have been here for about a year to two years saying a lot have been contacted and offered a job. I’m willing to bet a lot more people have gotten offers while not everyone accepted them. A long time friend got called a week after he received his type. He turned them down as he plans to stay at spirit. More people are willing to stay at spirit than people at the regional. Legacies right now are taking pretty much anyone who is eligible and competitive. But when hiring slows which I believe it has compared to the immediate post Covid wave, they’ll take someone with time in an a320 at a competitor over a regional fo (there’s many other factors obvious. It’s the same reason if you want to go to delta don’t go to endeavor go to envoy. If you want to go to American don’t go to a WO. The legacies take more pilots from competitors than they do their own regional carrier.
As for the pay you can add in the fact that it’s easy to credit more than mmg and pick up double pay. My previous carrier it was common for a first year to to finish with 150hrs on the year. That’s 0 career progression in my mind. Soft pay is just as important. While you cant count on it to pay your bills the reality is first year it’s pretty easy to finish at the same yearly pay or close to it and year two you’re already making up that difference. If we see a pay increase in the next 3-6 months that just be icing on the cake. |
Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer
(Post 3523073)
Having just come from a regional, it’s not what it seems. FOs that want to fly, aren’t flying. Which means no progression.
The rates are nice and I’m definitely missing out on the short term, but the regional model is imploding on itself. No one should want to be there once it goes belly up. If it does survive by some miracle, concessionary rates will be negotiated in the recession. I get the whole “just wait it out for a legacy job”, but the reality is, the ones being hired from the left seat have 300-500 hours TPIC. If it’s right seat to right seat, their total time is high and have an impressive resume. I have a friend who’s a CA at a regional with around 200 TPIC, has done a one on one MTC at UA and still hasn’t been called for a formal interview. On the other hand, my friend had 2 people in her leave NK right after their type ride for a legacy. Idk what the sauce is, but staying at a regional isn’t the answer. I do, however, encourage people to do what is right for them in their current situation. NK is not the airline for everyone, but it sure beats a regional by a loooong mile. |
Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer
(Post 3523073)
On the other hand, my friend had 2 people in her leave NK right after their type ride for a legacy. Idk what the sauce is, .
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Originally Posted by symbian simian
(Post 3523272)
class is important
We need to know, career decisions are on the line here. |
Originally Posted by El Peso
(Post 3523209)
Sorry, I’d like to confirm something here. Your friend got a type, updated their app (how else would anyone know they have a new type), and a week later proceeded to turn down an interview invite? Something smells fishy about this story.
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Originally Posted by SSlow
(Post 3523293)
Do you think this was a dual input situation or were they were taking turns?
We need to know, career decisions are on the line here. |
For some people it isn’t just what’s best for them personally. Sometimes spouses have careers too that are geographically dependent. Same for local family ties. Max money isn’t necessarily the answer. Sometimes sufficient for the goals is quite enough.
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Originally Posted by SSlow
(Post 3523293)
Do you think this was a dual input situation or were they were taking turns?
We need to know, career decisions are on the line here. |
Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1
(Post 3523302)
It’s not fishy, always keep your options open. Accepted a position at spirit and kept pursuing jet blue. Got offered an interview a week before my class date and eventually turned down the invite. I have active applications out with other carriers that I’m keeping updated too. Doesn’t mean I’d turn around and accept an interview invite right away. I know several people who have active applications out who originally planned to leave asap but now plan to stay.
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Originally Posted by El Peso
(Post 3523429)
Maybe in todays hiring environment things have changed, but when I was looking for job you didn’t post your app unless you wanted the job. If you got an invite and turned it down that was it. You were done with that airline. Hence why this story above seems so weird to me.
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Adding my experience:
Fourth year NK FO. Like Spirit but interested in Legacy A for personal reasons, basing one of them. Began applying to Legacy A, and also Legacy B, in March. Close to 1500 hours SIC on the Airbus. No TPIC though as I never upgraded at my regional. Didn't hear anything from Legacy A until October. Have never heard from Legacy B. Interviewed at Legacy A this week. I think it went alright but I think I could have done better on the technical scenarios. There were eight other pilots in my little interview group. There were zero regional pilots, and only one military. Three of us were from ULCC. Yesterday I was talking to one of our pilots, not that much junior too me, who has a job offer from Legacy C. In his interview group of 20, 10 were military, 5 were regional (all captains), 5 were non-regional civilian. Everyone was hired except the regional pilots. |
Originally Posted by BusBoi
(Post 3525938)
Adding my experience:
Fourth year NK FO. Like Spirit but interested in Legacy A for personal reasons, basing one of them. Began applying to Legacy A, and also Legacy B, in March. Close to 1500 hours SIC on the Airbus. No TPIC though as I never upgraded at my regional. Didn't hear anything from Legacy A until October. Have never heard from Legacy B. Interviewed at Legacy A this week. I think it went alright but I think I could have done better on the technical scenarios. There were eight other pilots in my little interview group. There were zero regional pilots, and only one military. Three of us were from ULCC. Yesterday I was talking to one of our pilots, not that much junior too me, who has a job offer from Legacy C. In his interview group of 20, 10 were military, 5 were regional (all captains), 5 were non-regional civilian. Everyone was hired except the regional pilots. How is life as a 4th year FO at NK? When are you able to hold an upgrade? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by W6TRP
(Post 3525946)
How is life as a 4th year FO at NK?
When are you able to hold an upgrade? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by FahQ2
(Post 3525951)
I just flew with an FO who got an upgrade award and he was either just under or just over 4 years, forgot which.
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Originally Posted by elmetal
(Post 3525979)
4th year FO means he's been there anywhere from 3 to 4 years [4th year pay], not 4+ so likely can't upgrade yet.
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Originally Posted by W6TRP
(Post 3525946)
How is life as a 4th year FO at NK?
When are you able to hold an upgrade? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by elmetal
(Post 3525979)
4th year FO means he's been there anywhere from 3 to 4 years [4th year pay], not 4+ so likely can't upgrade yet.
Someone asked about life here. While the grid is a lot more red on the FO side (base dependent) I still get most of what I want in my award and basically all of the days off I need. Even with a red grid I can still swap into different sometimes better trips over my original trip award, so still have some flexibility. I love it here and have no plans on leaving. That said I do realize that someone hired today in the 3000s is a hell of a lot diff than myself 3.5 years ago when I was 1900ish on the list. I was fortunate to be one of the first classes with massive hiring until Covid hit. Then we continued hiring 9-10 months after Covid continuously. The tough part of this career is timing, good and bad. Again I 100% understand why we have such high attrition. It’s a totally diff airline for a new hire today vs 4 years ago. I believe when all the BS growing/merger pains are over the new Blue is going to workout well. I’m not old, but I’m not insanely young either. I could probably leave, but I look at where I’ll realistically be after an SLI on a 7-8,000 combined pilot list and it doesn’t make a lot of sense to leave. |
Originally Posted by MCDUmanipulator
(Post 3525996)
It’s pretty great actually. In the 20% range in base of choice. Around 57% company seniority. Could hold captain currently in ORD, DTW, FLL or LAS, until being displaced from DTW or ORD on Feb 1
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