Well just looking at the FLL CA open time all the 4 days are 20 hours almost exactly and one is 21 hours. And then a bunch of 4 days with 15-16 hours sooo... yea about that.

Let this be the only time we agree so completely!

I would guess 90% of the NK 4 days are 20hrs or less...... 🙄

Typical ALV is between 73-79 hours, so 20hr 4days work fine...

I’ll take a 4 leg 4 day at 20 hours before a 27 block 4 day

Please never say that out loud in real life.

I will say it out loud every day. As many as possible of my trips are 4 leg 4 days

Awesome!! We disagree again

Now that I re read that I thought he said 20 hour 4 day not a 4 leg 1 day at 20 hours. When the hell does a 20 hour 1 day come along?

🤣 filler

What a confusing statement. Point is I would rather take a 27 hour 4 day vs a 20 hour 4 day regardless of how many legs. With that math that's an extra 3 days at work to make up the difference. No thanks.

How would it take 3 days to make 7 hours????? It really doesn't. At least not for me. Most of our 20 hour 4 days are easily commutable on both sides. Most of our 27 hour 4 days aren't commutable on either. It is almost 2 full days extra for 7 hours of pay extra. I would be gone 18 days for 81 hours, or 16 days for 80 hours. And that includes having to commute 1 less time with the higher credit trip.

Confusing for those who say “A-Spirita Wings” as our call sign.

“4 leg 4 day at 20 hours”. Let’s break it up for Lincoln

4 leg=you fly 4 legs for the trip
4 days= you are working 4 days
20 hours= the pay

Some of us don’t want the SWA workload and prefer to work less.

A 27 hour 4 day imputes an average of 6.75 hours per day. To get to 72 hours (rounding up) that is 11 days. To get to that same 72 hours with your 20 hour 4 days imputing a 5 hour credit per day that equals 14.4 duty days so rounding that up as well to 15 its actually an extra 4 day trip just to get to the same min guarantee. "Most of our 27 hour four days" um... what 27 hour four days? Lmao
""

I would prefer to have more days off at home... What you are implying is more days on the road but your leg to stand on is "yea but I don't have to fly as much" I mean really???

Oookay. How about you go back to LYAO. And I will remain sane.

I don't know what LYAO is but I will take that as you don't have a meaningful rebuttal.

Yes, it's called "soft time." Its called a 4 day that pays 20 hours, blocks 17, and a low TAFB (has to be with the 3.5 rig) means I get paid 20, to fly less, and I have at least one large chunk of day 1 or day 4 at home because of the low TAFB, to you know, see family. Versus, blocking 26 to credit 26, while waiting on the short hotel bus for my 10:45 minute layover at the MEM short, no food, no gym, nothing.

One thing you need to try to understand is one size doesnt fit all, not everyone wants to do high block trips. It might not make sense to drive to work to do a 5 hour turn, its min credit (oh God) but some of us are fine with the easier path and are financially not needing to chase the extra money by working like a regional pilot.

okay. remember where you said LMAO? I am suggesting You (hint) keep doing that….. (baby steps)



And yeah, I will have to agree that I don’t really have a meaningful rebuttal to the word salad you posted.

We have several over 25+ hour credit 4 days, including the odd 27 hour one. None of those are commutable as I said. And I could do the math for you again. Or maybe you could try to read what I said again. Having said that, I tried reading what you said several times and it didn’t help me, so I highly doubt you would do better. Impute….. now I’m LMAO.

Well if you want to spend more days at work just to make min guarantee then that's on you. Again I don't think I would say that at work out loud.

wtf. You guys don’t even have an ADG?

I've never heard anyone ever say LYAO ever. Looking at the parings for August for FLL we have 10 trips with 25+ hours out of a total of 242 four day trips so I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "several"? We all know you have to commute as it is all you ever seem to talk about, but that sounds like a YOU problem. If commuting is so bad may I suggest a change in airlines or career?

no, and I would like to keep it that way. We get paid per duty period. You know, paid when you work…. But that is not the main reason. Where I am based most are commuters. And having trip that have both late starts and early finish is helpful with that. I can, for the life of me, not understand people that get into a job that is 24/7 and complain about working weekends. If you want to work calendar week day, go to the post office. So, stop thinking about calendar days. Think about the hours you spend at home.
we have a lot of trips that start at 11pm, one leg, 22 hour rest, one leg back, home at 8am. Most people hate them because 3 day pays 10 hours. I would do those all the time if I lived in base, because I would be home 5 days a week.
We get the industry standard 3.5 duty rig, 5 hours per duty period, and an extra duty paid for every layover over 24 hours.
most of my 4 day trips are 68 TAFB, 14 hour duty, 12 block, 20 credit, 3 duty, 4 legs. Let me know when your ADG would improve on those.

Uh, “several”. As in not lots, but a few. Like you said, maybe 10 or so? And I am not based in FLL. And more than half of the pilots in my base commute, are you really suggesting we all leave, don’t you think our attrition is bad enough already? And I’m sure there’s plenty of things you have never heard anyone say, but that shouldn’t really have stopped you from understanding that one now, should it?

Ah yes one of those that went to an east coast airline and lives out west. That was a smart move wasn't it? :D Yes we know commuting sucks, but crying to us about it online ain't gonna change much. Especially with your "min credit 4 day" rhotic.

Im calling about your car's extended warranty.

“rhotic”? And I live east of my base…. I just don’t want our work rules to be ruined because people don’t foresee consequences. Changing the contract will change the pairings. And not necessarily in a good way. And not just for commuters.
Chances are (6 to 1) that I’ve been here longer than you. I elected to commute from the start. That does negate in any way my right to defend the things in our contract that help commuters.

And what things in our contract currently "help commuters"? The only thing we have in our contract containing paring construction is the red eye +1. There is currently nothing in our contract that requires the company to make pairings "commutable" or going to all 1 day trips. So what specific "work rules" are you talking about that we have that no one else does or isn't industry standard?

We have average duty period guarantee just like you guys at JetBlue used to have. Difference is we get an additional duty period of pay for over nights longer than 24hrs scheduled.

Everyone except spirit and frontier has average daily (calendar day) guarantee aka ADG.

Very few of us (simian) want to keep the current duty period language. Calendar day is industry standard. I would like to see the overnight credit trigger stay intact though. I’d also like to see the calendar day as a hard credit and not an average across the trip with 2hrs on day one and 8hrs on day 2 for a 10hr 2 day trip. That trip would pay 13hrs if it was a hard credit. That however is not industry standard but if there is any time to get it it’s in the JCBA that the company has to make happen. It would also prevent the in domicile layover shenanigans JetBlue is pulling with their pairings to eliminate any soft credit by playing the averages.

Not having ADG, and having trip averaging helps commuters. That is my opinion. What we have makes having short first and last days economically okay for the company. If they have to pay you at least 5 hours per day, they will fly you at least 5 hours per day. no more late starts, long layovers (but just under 24 obviously) and no more early finishes. And there is plenty of people that say we should get ADG, and should get rid of trip averaging. And if we did that, I think our trips would end up like SWAs. And in my 10 years here, everyone I have talked to has said they don't want to work for SWA. Everyone keeps harping on "3" day 10 hr trips in Vegas. Almost all check in an hour before midnight, and occasionally we have one that starts later. Obviously, those trips would be gone with ADG. But what would appear in their place. I am convinced the red-eyes out of Vegas would depart at 1 am (like at F9s), and land later on the east coast, making them worse, and still pay 10 hours because due to leaving an hour later, they are now magically 2 day trips...... It is fine to hate what you have, and good to fight to change it, but stupid not to consider what would happen if you change it. I am not smarter, but after 33 years in aviation I have seen plenty of unintended consequences.

I think the company would give us ADG and get rid of trip averaging in a heartbeat for red/green/dtz/4day. Those are way above industry leading NVM standard. We need to defend those, and help JB guys see how much they do for us, so they will fight for those too.

You can adjust trips for ADG and averaging, and long stay aso. R/G DTZ 4day will be a cost to them and a gain for us, always, as long as we don't give it up.

It isn't because I want to get paid less. It is because I think we would just work more for the same.... I am biased being Vegas based, but our trips start anywhere from 4am till 1am, and end between 8am and 1am. It makes the whole concept of calendar day "wrong". I only look at TAFB in hours and days off at home when the sun is up, not calendar days off. most of our worst 3 day trips could easily be turned into worse 2 day trips for the same pay by starting 45 minutes later. Maybe we need 5 ADG and 6.5 per duty period. I am not saying I have the solution, I just think that going for ADG will not improve QOL or pay, at least for LAS.

And that trip would have 5 hours on day 1 if we had hard credit..... Trips are built with the rules in mind. see above

I hate to break it to you but calendar day is industry standard and it is coming. You are gonna run out of soap boxes.

No doubt. And so is losing DTZ R/G 4day. it was fun while it lasted. It would have been much easier to keep without JB, but no one asked me.
Let me riddle you this though. If everything is industry standard, why does every company still have its own CBA?
If industry standard means we lose all the good stuff, but we can't get the pay, maybe industry standard isn't helping us.

The majority of people don’t enjoy red eye flights, but what I would enjoy less are 4-5 leg a day pairings because the company wants to squeeze their money’s worth out of an average daily credit. It also doesn’t mean red eye flying will disappear. Utilization, transcons, and longer range aircraft will see to that. Can it be frustrating to fly lower credit pairings, of course, but I also don’t want to sell flexibility for a few dollars more.

Either way it’s important to openly discuss both advantages and pitfalls of either philosophy.

Can't get the pay?

Red/green is not going anywhere

Thats 100% accurate. Zero chance our NC and/or MEC gives that arbitrated language away, they will die on that hill. You never give away arbitrated language as strong as our red green language.

Absolutely. It drives the whole NK QOL.

Not that IN THIS ENVIRONMENT anyone ought to be giving up a single damn thing.

I can tell you we Blue shirts want Red/Green badly as well. I think it stays.

Not a fan of the way Lincoln is conducting himself or addressing the discussion. Maybe less of him?

We Blue shirts have Average Daily Guarantee AND Average Duty Period. We have both. Definitely not perfect, and frankly we need additional protections because one rig, or the other, each have their own holes. Even having them both isn't good enough.

For commutability protections, I want to see commutable trip-mix requirements in the CBA. But this next part is important because each base has very different needs and preferences... The commutability requirements should be based on an annual base by base survey. So bases with mostly locals can have their preferences met, and bases with mostly commuters (roughly half of JB's nearly 5,000 pilots) can have their preferences met.

Other than the one guy being a jerk here really enjoying the discussion and learning about your CBA. I can see where each CBA has its strengths, but still need to learn more.

Copy, very helpful.

Definitely need to take the best of both CBAs.

I will address the discussion however I want. However, if you would like to cry about it some more my door's always open. ;)

I know you will, and frankly when I'm in the mood you can count on the same from me pumpkin.

Half of JB is commuters, so you can count on some pushback to your one-size-fits-all make everything great for locals only ideas to get rightsized...

Maybe sometimes try and have a constructive discussion? I try it occasionally it seems to be useful.