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Survey accuracy
When filling out the survey and answering the pay questions make sure you’re using up to date pay comparisons at other airlines. JetBlue/delta/AA AIP. Airline pilot central does not have current cycle numbers.
delta https://www.airlinepilotcareers.com/delta-air-lines jetblue https://www.airlinepilotcareers.com/jetblue 2024 numbers not published which would be most accurate for timeline. Also remember delta is getting their full retirement contribution if out on LTD. Profit sharing also important. I’ll leave the work rule or comments section up to each pilot. |
Originally Posted by Noisecanceller
(Post 3657550)
When filling out the survey and answering the pay questions make sure you’re using up to date pay comparisons at other airlines. JetBlue/delta/AA AIP. Airline pilot central does not have current cycle numbers.
delta https://www.airlinepilotcareers.com/delta-air-lines jetblue https://www.airlinepilotcareers.com/jetblue 2024 numbers not published which would be most accurate for timeline. Also remember delta is getting their full retirement contribution if out on LTD. Profit sharing also important. I’ll leave the work rule or comments section up to each pilot. |
Originally Posted by Hugh Betcha
(Post 3657572)
Great points, unfortunately I had already hit the send button. Wish I had considered and shared that important facet about the LTD.
SWA/UAL/AA really shouldn’t be considered in the contract comparison document bc they are all on old contracts and AA currently has an AIP which is not included in the document. |
I’m just glad they came to their senses and expanded beyond a phone survey.
a phone survey in 2023. Someone calls you and you are caught off guard and now have to answer questions about your future wants and needs without the benefit of having time to look over comparisons and think the answer out before hand. It is ALPA after all so maybe it shouldn’t have surprised me. |
Originally Posted by RiddleEagle18
(Post 3657685)
I’m just glad they came to their senses and expanded beyond a phone survey.
a phone survey in 2023. Someone calls you and you are caught off guard and now have to answer questions about your future wants and needs without the benefit of having time to look over comparisons and think the answer out before hand. It is ALPA after all so maybe it shouldn’t have surprised me. |
Originally Posted by Noisecanceller
(Post 3657550)
When filling out the survey and answering the pay questions make sure you’re using up to date pay comparisons at other airlines. JetBlue/delta/AA AIP. Airline pilot central does not have current cycle numbers.
delta https://www.airlinepilotcareers.com/delta-air-lines jetblue https://www.airlinepilotcareers.com/jetblue 2024 numbers not published which would be most accurate for timeline. Also remember delta is getting their full retirement contribution if out on LTD. Profit sharing also important. I’ll leave the work rule or comments section up to each pilot. |
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3659518)
Good post. Even the JB numbers are out of date, as we get a ~3% raise on Aug 1st.
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Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3659532)
Looking at the contract comparison guide, says Spirit CAs get a 4%-7.5% increase on 1-1-24. But no explanation as to what triggers the higher end of the range. What causes it to go above 4%?
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Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3659532)
Looking at the contract comparison guide, says Spirit CAs get a 4%-7.5% increase on 1-1-24. But no explanation as to what triggers the higher end of the range. What causes it to go above 4%?
It’s clear our NC and Management used an excel spread sheet when coming up with DOS1 rates and basically adjusting the raises at DOS1, to see total cost, and going from there. There isn’t a universal flat %. So a 12 year CA will see a 4% raise and a 5 year CA will see the 7.5% We are still trying to fix the horrendous slope of the 2010 contract, trying to shallow it out over each contract. I don’t like this variable % increase, but they (NC) will tell you it’s trying to fix the slope against a management that doesn’t want to. |
Originally Posted by sioux8ships
(Post 3659534)
12 yr CA pay goes from $300 to $312 in 2024.. barely 4%. I can’t speak for other longevity’s.. maybe it’s more of a % for certain YOS.
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Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo
(Post 3659535)
It’s based on longevity, different longevity gets different rates.
It’s clear our NC and Management used an excel spread sheet when coming up with DOS1 rates and basically adjusting the raises at DOS1, to see total cost, and going from there. There isn’t a universal flat %. So a 12 year CA will see a 4% raise and a 5 year CA will see the 7.5% We are still trying to fix the horrendous slope of the 2010 contract, trying to shallow it out over each contract. I don’t like this variable % increase, but they (NC) will tell you it’s trying to fix the slope against a management that doesn’t want to. |
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3659757)
Makes sense, thanks guys.
JB pilot gets paid 35 hours for a week of vacation. What do you gain/lose if you choose 12 hours? What do you gain/loose if you pick 44 hours? |
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3659816)
Another question. Says NK gets paid between 12-44 hours for a vacation week. How does this work???
JB pilot gets paid 35 hours for a week of vacation. What do you gain/lose if you choose 12 hours? What do you gain/loose if you pick 44 hours? |
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3659816)
Another question. Says NK gets paid between 12-44 hours for a vacation week. How does this work???
JB pilot gets paid 35 hours for a week of vacation. What do you gain/lose if you choose 12 hours? What do you gain/loose if you pick 44 hours? yr 5: 3 weeks, 84 hours, year 10: 3 weeks 98 hours, year 15 4 weeks, 112 hours year 20 4 weeks, 126 hours Not saying our accrual is better., but I do like the way our vacation bidding works. I get the weeks I can hold according to seniority. Two months before my vacation month, I can put my vacation "request" (called request, but can not be denied) in. I can move the week up to 3 days in either direction. I can add up to two days off, on either end. This basically gives me the option to slide almost an entire week. As far as pay. I can take anywhere between 12-36 hours of credit for my vacay, and the 2 additional days, I can elect to pay from my vacation fund, bringing the max to 44 hours for a week of vacation. So say you are a year 2 guy, with 2 weeks and 56 hours, and you are lucky enough to get spring break and a week starting July 10th. For the spring break, you really only need the week so you allocate 12 hours, and work a bit harder the rest of the month. For the second vacation, you slide and add paid days, elect 36 hours, for 44 total, guaranteeing you off from July 5th till the 13th. And you will only need +/-30 more hours of credit to make it a legal line, so 6 days at the end of the month, so possibly off till the 24th. In June you pick up a trip that ends on the 30th before July bids close, and don't waive the 4 days off between trips, so they cannot give you any trips between the 30th and the 5th. you now have vacation from July1st till July 24th with 1 week of vacation. |
Originally Posted by symbian simian
(Post 3659845)
So when you have 3 weeks, you have 105 hours of credit. NK has different steps:
yr 5: 3 weeks, 84 hours, year 10: 3 weeks 98 hours, year 15 4 weeks, 112 hours year 20 4 weeks, 126 hours Not saying our accrual is better., but I do like the way our vacation bidding works. I get the weeks I can hold according to seniority. Two months before my vacation month, I can put my vacation "request" (called request, but can not be denied) in. I can move the week up to 3 days in either direction. I can add up to two days off, on either end. This basically gives me the option to slide almost an entire week. As far as pay. I can take anywhere between 12-36 hours of credit for my vacay, and the 2 additional days, I can elect to pay from my vacation fund, bringing the max to 44 hours for a week of vacation. So say you are a year 2 guy, with 2 weeks and 56 hours, and you are lucky enough to get spring break and a week starting July 10th. For the spring break, you really only need the week so you allocate 12 hours, and work a bit harder the rest of the month. For the second vacation, you slide and add paid days, elect 36 hours, for 44 total, guaranteeing you off from July 5th till the 13th. And you will only need +/-30 more hours of credit to make it a legal line, so 6 days at the end of the month, so possibly off till the 24th. In June you pick up a trip that ends on the 30th before July bids close, and don't waive the 4 days off between trips, so they cannot give you any trips between the 30th and the 5th. you now have vacation from July1st till July 24th with 1 week of vacation. Very flexible. |
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3659903)
Ok, so among other benefits/strategies, the range of 12-44 is simply coming from your allotment, and distributing your own allotment how you prefer for each week?
Very flexible. |
Originally Posted by symbian simian
(Post 3659915)
yes, you can only use what you have in your bank. And you can get 8 hours of your bank paid out each month if you want the money, but don’t need the days off. Honestly a great system.
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Originally Posted by symbian simian
(Post 3659845)
So when you have 3 weeks, you have 105 hours of credit. NK has different steps:
yr 5: 3 weeks, 84 hours, year 10: 3 weeks 98 hours, year 15 4 weeks, 112 hours year 20 4 weeks, 126 hours Not saying our accrual is better., but I do like the way our vacation bidding works. I get the weeks I can hold according to seniority. Two months before my vacation month, I can put my vacation "request" (called request, but can not be denied) in. I can move the week up to 3 days in either direction. I can add up to two days off, on either end. This basically gives me the option to slide almost an entire week. As far as pay. I can take anywhere between 12-36 hours of credit for my vacay, and the 2 additional days, I can elect to pay from my vacation fund, bringing the max to 44 hours for a week of vacation. So say you are a year 2 guy, with 2 weeks and 56 hours, and you are lucky enough to get spring break and a week starting July 10th. For the spring break, you really only need the week so you allocate 12 hours, and work a bit harder the rest of the month. For the second vacation, you slide and here onadd paid days, elect 36 hours, for 44 total, guaranteeing you off from July 5th till the 13th. And you will only need +/-30 more hours of credit to make it a legal line, so 6 days at the end of the month, so possibly off till the 24th. In June you pick up a trip that ends on the 30th before July bids close, and don't waive the 4 days off between trips, so they cannot give you any trips between the 30th and the 5th. you now have vacation from July1st till July 24th with 1 week of vacation. Flexibility is what I like about Spirit. I just edit to add that I dropped a trip for military leave |
Originally Posted by BananaHammock
(Post 3660125)
Flexibility is what I like about Spirit.
I'm new, but the reason I came to Spirit was the unmatched ability to shape our schedule. I'm curious why the red/green rules and drop to zero were left out of the contract comparison document ALPA sent out. Those two things are the best part about our contract and worth everything to me. I got the relief line from redeye h*ll after OE and was able to drop/swap into a completely new schedule. This is amazing given I was the most junior guy in the company. I'm a little worried the MEC is undervaluing those rules, and the JetBlue guys don't understand it and the implications from both an earnings potential and QOL perspective. |
Originally Posted by vegabondpilot
(Post 3660769)
Same.
I'm new, but the reason I came to Spirit was the unmatched ability to shape our schedule. I'm curious why the red/green rules and drop to zero were left out of the contract comparison document ALPA sent out. Those two things are the best part about our contract and worth everything to me. I got the relief line from redeye h*ll after OE and was able to drop/swap into a completely new schedule. This is amazing given I was the most junior guy in the company. I'm a little worried the MEC is undervaluing those rules, and the JetBlue guys don't understand it and the implications from both an earnings potential and QOL perspective. |
Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo
(Post 3660921)
Our MEC does not undervalue those provisions. Those provisions were fought and won for, in binding arbitration. They actually value those provisions highly, unlike some pilots who always ask “so what’s so good about the work rules, I don’t get it”
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Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo
(Post 3659535)
It’s based on longevity, different longevity gets different rates.
It’s clear our NC and Management used an excel spread sheet when coming up with DOS1 rates and basically adjusting the raises at DOS1, to see total cost, and going from there. There isn’t a universal flat %. So a 12 year CA will see a 4% raise and a 5 year CA will see the 7.5% We are still trying to fix the horrendous slope of the 2010 contract, trying to shallow it out over each contract. I don’t like this variable % increase, but they (NC) will tell you it’s trying to fix the slope against a management that doesn’t want to. |
Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo
(Post 3660921)
Our MEC does not undervalue those provisions. Those provisions were fought and won for, in binding arbitration. They actually value those provisions highly, unlike some pilots who always ask “so what’s so good about the work rules, I don’t get it”
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Originally Posted by vegabondpilot
(Post 3660982)
Good. I sure hope the JetBlue pilot group gets it. This is 100% worth [labor_action_not_allowed_to_talk_about] over. Honestly, I'll probably go somewhere else if we lose either DTZ or the grid rules. it's very powerful for guys like me who like to determine their own schedule.
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Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo
(Post 3661046)
if you are willing to bail over Drop to Zero, I would get your applications out now, unless its just exaggeration on your part. Dont miss out on a thousand spots of seniority at a legacy while you wait around to see what happens to DTZ.
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We are light years behind b6 cba.
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Originally Posted by 8JRMfortheyear
(Post 3661126)
We are light years behind b6 cba.
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Originally Posted by Tornado875
(Post 3661133)
But muh drop to zero
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Originally Posted by 8JRMfortheyear
(Post 3661164)
Soon to go bye bye
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Originally Posted by Crjdeuce
(Post 3661175)
Don’t understand you guys who are publicly willing to give things up. There is absolutely no reason we should give up DTZ or 4 days off. The ball is in our court and you are showing weakness on a public forum.
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I fail to see - in this environment +- why a JCBA should give up ANYTHING. The negotiation ought to be striving for the best of both CBAs plus improvements. If not now, when?
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 3661202)
I fail to see - in this environment +- why a JCBA should give up ANYTHING. The negotiation ought to be striving for the best of both CBAs plus improvements. If not now, when?
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Can some explain the 4-days off. I know a little about what it means, but I would imagine there are ways to take advantage of it as a pilot that I haven't thought of? I know you can waive it in PBS, but do you have the option to "waive it to 3" or "waive it to 2"?
Are there ways to use the 4-day off rule to add credit? What are the strategies? My initial concern is for a guy that likes to fly 4-days, and never work a weekend, those two things seem incompatible with "min 4 days off". Is the solution to "waive to 3"? Or? Agree with others, generally looking to get the best of each contract, as much as possible, and profit sharing, and industry leading rates. Thanks |
4 days off
4 days off is just an initial scheduling req for the company. I think most people waive it to get what they want.
DTZ and the red/green rules let you do stuff like drop everything and sit on the X/Y list. I know guys who are flexible and routinely credit triple digits while keeping normal number of days off. The point is you can earn more than at a legacy here if you want to hustle. Or, you can chill out and fly one trip a month. Or, do both depending on what you have going on. And because of the grid rules, open time tends to have more and better trips. It also forces the company to keep the airline adequately staffed with reserve coverage. If a friend calls you up and wants to go camping, or you're invited to a wedding last minute, you can just drop a conflicting trip and and pick up something on other days. You don't have to rely on the ambiguity of a trade. This flexibility is gold to me. There is no reason we can't have industry leading work rules AND pay with the new JCBA except for our willingness to fight for it. Attracting pilots is an operational limfac and could be a competitive adv for the new JetBlue. |
Originally Posted by onedolla
(Post 3661217)
A lot of people said that about the last contract(s) too and look where we are. I’ll hope for everything on this wishlists going around, but I sure won’t be surprised seeing another result that targets the “we’ll be leaving money on the table if we don’t pass this” group.
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 3661273)
That gives the pilot group a lot of negotiating leverage.
Guys complaining about the recent contract are missing the forest through the trees. It was a temporary raise knowing a new contract is coming soon. The company had to do something to help recruiting/stem attrition, and it put us in position to negotiate for the long term. The merger doesn't happen w/out a JCBA. We're nearing the bottom of the pool of qualified pilots and facing a decade of shortage. We're in a unique situation where both the company and the pilots are incentivized to put a great contract in place. Delta doesn't have a snap up to JetBlue... just sayin'. |
Originally Posted by vegabondpilot
(Post 3661280)
Exactly.
Guys complaining about the recent contract are missing the forest through the trees. It was a temporary raise knowing a new contract is coming soon. The company had to do something to help recruiting/stem attrition, and it put us in position to negotiate for the long term. The merger doesn't happen w/out a JCBA. We're nearing the bottom of the pool of qualified pilots and facing a decade of shortage. We're in a unique situation where both the company and the pilots are incentivized to put a great contract in place. Delta doesn't have a snap up to JetBlue... just sayin'. |
Originally Posted by Crjdeuce
(Post 3661175)
Don’t understand you guys who are publicly willing to give things up. There is absolutely no reason we should give up DTZ or 4 days off. The ball is in our court and you are showing weakness on a public forum.
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Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3661254)
Can some explain the 4-days off. I know a little about what it means, but I would imagine there are ways to take advantage of it as a pilot that I haven't thought of? I know you can waive it in PBS, but do you have the option to "waive it to 3" or "waive it to 2"?
Are there ways to use the 4-day off rule to add credit? What are the strategies? My initial concern is for a guy that likes to fly 4-days, and never work a weekend, those two things seem incompatible with "min 4 days off". Is the solution to "waive to 3"? Or? Agree with others, generally looking to get the best of each contract, as much as possible, and profit sharing, and industry leading rates. Thanks no, 4 days off is for QOL not credit. yes, my situation exactly, for home bound to weekly schedule, for commute prefer 4 days, so waive to 3. Not waiving will mostly get you more days off in your initial award, requirements to have open time, and people using IOT for dropping will give junior people a lot of options to change their schedule in DOT. Requirement for the company to only be able to use one number for minimum reserve required across the whole month (with the exception for a few specific days a year), with the requirement that 75% of the days need to be green, and the option to have red on red day trades gives everyone options most of the time. No requirement to ever have a certain credit level means if you need more time off, it’s normally not that hard. The way our premium is build and handed out means generally very good pay for very little work, most of the premium I’ve done, I will get 20 hours of pay, and as a commuter am gone from my home less than 24 hours. Most of our rules lean towards less work, not more credit, and that is why people came to NK over SWA. I have never done PBS at another airline, so for all I know, JB could be superior in every of these categories, and that is why we should keep comparing here, so we both figure out what we need to keep most. |
The real beauty in the 4 days off min is that it forces the company to build more productive pairings if it wants to limit the number of pilots.
You can’t make a schedule of 5 hour min days(20 hour 4 days) and complete an entire summer month, with the typically higher bid divisor. |
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