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Lincoln Osiris 10-10-2023 12:13 PM


Originally Posted by biigD (Post 3708883)
I agree - I wish we could reliably do it! But I wonder why other unions can't find a way to work this level of flexibility into their contracts - I can't imagine Spirit is carrying more pilots for a given amount of block hours of flying, or maybe they are? But if not, it just doesn't seem like something that should cost the company a lot of money if the metal continues to move, and as you said it'd result in a much happier and productive pilot group.

What people here fail to mention is that yes 75% prior to initial open time must be green. However, a day is "green" if there is 1 or more excess of pilots needed to cover that day. So say you have 75% green with every one of those green by only 1 and then the most senior pilot in initial drops his entire schedule that was on all of those green days. Guess what? The entire grid is now red for the rest of the 99.99% in base. Has this happened? Not that I've seen, but it's something that could. So its not as concrete orgasmic work rule as the NK cheerleaders like to make it out to be.

SoFloFlyer 10-10-2023 12:16 PM


Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3708736)
Miserable is subjective, but your own guy (SoFlo) is saying that RSVs can't be allowed to have drop/swap because it would make DTZ worth very little (paraphrasing). So should I believe him or you?

I mentioned how reserves can be better. I never said that it shouldn’t be improved upon. I did mention how it is now and how that benefits the pilot group as a whole.

As I mentioned before, reserve rules should be improved. No doubt. How it’s improved will determine how DTZ is utilized (albeit, things like language and grid rules matter a lot too).

At NK, we have different windows for processing add/drop/swap request in seniority order before going to FCFS for the rest of the month. I offered to explain it to you, but didn’t accept. So, now you’re worried about DTZ going out of seniority order and I’m saying that both can be accomplished since it’s currently being done at NK.

Bluedriver 10-10-2023 12:25 PM


Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3708902)
I mentioned how reserves can be better. I never said that it shouldn’t be improved upon. I did mention how it is now and how that benefits the pilot group as a whole.

As I mentioned before, reserve rules should be improved. No doubt. How it’s improved will determine how DTZ is utilized (albeit, things like language and grid rules matter a lot too).

At NK, we have different windows for processing add/drop/swap request in seniority order before going to FCFS for the rest of the month. I offered to explain it to you, but didn’t accept. So, now you’re worried about DTZ going out of seniority order and I’m saying that both can be accomplished since it’s currently being done at NK.

We have the ADD/DROP/SWAP windows as well. And RSVs can participate in those in seniority order, and drop or swap their RSV days.

Bluediver 10-11-2023 05:30 AM


Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3708906)
We have the ADD/DROP/SWAP windows as well. And RSVs can participate in those in seniority order, and drop or swap their RSV days.

It works so fantastic in fact that 59% of the requests made for November were denied due to reserve coverage on the first FCFS window. Now that doesn’t mean that the reserves who are currently able to drop in that window did because looking at the grid before the window closed will show many days where reserve was at or below min before the window opened when the award came out. This language in which you must be green 75% of the time to start and getting rid of our very messy multiple grids and multiple days nonsense would be a good place to start.

Bluedriver 10-11-2023 07:04 AM


Originally Posted by Bluediver (Post 3709141)
It works so fantastic in fact that 59% of the requests made for November were denied due to reserve coverage on the first FCFS window. Now that doesn’t mean that the reserves who are currently able to drop in that window did because looking at the grid before the window closed will show many days where reserve was at or below min before the window opened when the award came out. This language in which you must be green 75% of the time to start and getting rid of our very messy multiple grids and multiple days nonsense would be a good place to start.

Yes, those two provisions are absolutely MANDATORY.

1. Keeping NK Green grid rules.

2. Getting rid of the JB multiple reserve grid catastrophe that was snuck in in first cba.

Noisecanceller 10-11-2023 08:57 AM


Originally Posted by Lincoln Osiris (Post 3708900)
What people here fail to mention is that yes 75% prior to initial open time must be green. However, a day is "green" if there is 1 or more excess of pilots needed to cover that day. So say you have 75% green with every one of those green by only 1 and then the most senior pilot in initial drops his entire schedule that was on all of those green days. Guess what? The entire grid is now red for the rest of the 99.99% in base. Has this happened? Not that I've seen, but it's something that could. So its not as concrete orgasmic work rule as the NK cheerleaders like to make it out to be.


This is incorrect. They cannot just make it green by 1. The numbers are arbitrary. The starting green spread is based on historical averages which. This language was tested and won in arbitration

JulesWinfield 10-11-2023 08:59 AM


Originally Posted by Noisecanceller (Post 3709248)
This is incorrect. They cannot just make it green by 1. The numbers are arbitrary. The starting green spread is based on historical averages which. This language was tested and won in arbitration

This is the key. DTZ is useless without control of the grid.

SoFloFlyer 10-11-2023 09:44 AM


Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3709203)
Yes, those two provisions are absolutely MANDATORY.

1. Keeping NK Green grid rules.

2. Getting rid of the JB multiple reserve grid catastrophe that was snuck in in first cba.

Can you explain this further?

Bluediver 10-11-2023 10:44 AM


Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3709266)
Can you explain this further?

Anyone else care to take this? I’m too beaten by the grids themselves to explain it. It certainly wasn’t snuck in. It was deliberate and I personally was lied to by my former Rep when specifically asking the hard question about the 1,2,3 and 4 day wording in the CBA. Ignorance and or “we didn’t think they’d do that.” Is no excuse for 5 years of garbage.

Bluedriver 10-11-2023 11:49 AM


Originally Posted by Bluediver (Post 3709299)
Anyone else care to take this? I’m too beaten by the grids themselves to explain it. It certainly wasn’t snuck in. It was deliberate and I personally was lied to by my former Rep when specifically asking the hard question about the 1,2,3 and 4 day wording in the CBA. Ignorance and or “we didn’t think they’d do that.” Is no excuse for 5 years of garbage.

It was snuck in to the MEMBERSHIP! We were not told what this meant, or what the ramifications were, let alone was it highlighted as a change from previous book/practice.

I also wouldn't be able to do the explanation any justice.

Bottom line, there's no way it survives the JCBA, and if they want an explanation they should post a question on the JB board and see if someone wants to explain the abomination.


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