Does working at a ULCC mean you deserve less?
 

This is the line of thinking I am hearing from pilots. “We are the highest paid ULCC” as a justification for making less than other airline pilots.

Working at a company that has a low fare business model does not make you worth less as a pilot. You are still responsible for the aircraft and hundreds of lives day in and day out. You had to work just as hard to get an ATP. You can still be violated by the FAA. Why does the company’s business model matter?

You deserve to be paid as much as the Jetblue or Delta pilot who does the same exact job. One could argue that being a Spirit pilot is more difficult with the more densely packed aircraft and higher incidence of passenger issues to deal with. Should you get paid more for that? The argument can be made.

In the upcoming JCBA negotiations great things can be accomplished. Don’t settle for less.

Cool story. Why did you vote in a contract that doesn’t have a market rate adjustment to top Airbus pay, and instead, an average of many airlines? Why did you vote in a contract that has 1 market rate adjustment in the post ratification era for the Legacy contracts (2024) and not the years after when the legacy contracts continue to increase?

Practice what your preach, troll.

Your contract is slightly higher than ours and because of pattern bargaining, you guys will get a 2024 1 time market rate bump, congrats on that. But calling NK pilots “bottom feeders” who are the lowest paid Airbus pilots in the industry is ridiculously inaccurate.

But thanks for the advice, Dad. Can’t wait for you to sling my gear in a shiny blue airplane down the road.

Which one do we deserve though...could you be more specific? It looks like DL pays better than JB

"Slightly Higher" in this case being approximately 50$ more an hour, let's at least be honest.
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Read what I said, their initial contract rates were slightly better than ours, but because, and only because, other airlines got bumps, they got a bump. It’s a “me too” clause. Great to have, we don’t have it. But I won’t be lectured by someone telling me I need to do more, to get the same as a JBLU and a DAL pilot when he himself doesn’t get paid DAL rates and the only reason JBLU top is more than $15 more than us on the top is BECAUSE of the heavy lifting done by legacy airlines.

Please tell me you see the hypocrisy.

Also, their CEO at least has said on record that pilot pay will need to standardize across the industry. It’s A LOT easier to score a “me too” in the contract when the CEO agrees that his pilots need to make legacy comparable rates.

actually deserve more. I spend a lot of my time trying to stay legal and safe when many different parts of the bare bones, poorly trained operation are trying to screw us.

Hate to say it, but if you want Legacy Airline pay, then go work at a Legacy Airline.

Spirit is a low cost airline, and the pilots are paid accordignly. It is like a guy flying a BE1900 at Ameriflight expecting to make UPS 747 Captain pay. The single pilot BE1900 is probably a little more demanding and works more hours, but the UPS 747 Captain makes 6x the money (or more).

Different jobs, different pay.

Go to a Legacy Airline if you want Legacy Airline pay.

You deserve what you can negotiate, no more and no less. Which is why when you have an unusual advantage - like a JCBA that management badly needs during a once in several decades pilot shortage - you better damn well have your best, most hardcore people doing the negotiating and then YOU decide if that's enough. It's not up to the NC to sell you on the package. You aren't paying them to shill for the opposition.

There it is. It only took 6 posts on this thread for someone to be arguing against a leading contract. Sigh.....

God this is the dumbest thing ever said.

Why are you so mad? Why even try to defend our garbage contract? Just aceept its a pile of dog crap and lets get hungry to fight to be compensated the same as our peers.

Someone who apparently doesn't even work for NK (or B6)

Carry on

you want to explain the difference in job duties between A320 vs A320

Well that makes me feel a little better. If he's a dumbass at least he isn't one that will be voting with me.

There's enough dumbasses here for everybody. Don't worry.

I'm quite the dumbass myself.

I like to think that the real dumbasses were the dumbasses we made along the way.

Love emoji

Yeah without Robin saying that, there’s no snap-up language….thank you Robin. The stuff I read on APC sometimes. 🤦🏻‍♂️

This is a bit off base

He said that it's easier to make such contractual gains when the CEO acknowledges that pay needs to be competive in order to retain pilots.

It worked out a lot better than Ted's approach of telling pilots to quit and go to work for the legacies.

I assure you that every airline CEO wants to pay us less. We got the snap up because we fought for it. Plain and simple.

Sure. You guys fought for it, how? Honest question. Did you vote down the first TA? Did you strike? Your NC did a great job obtaining a provision based on the CEO stating he believes pilot pay will need to normalize. You guys voted in the first TA, like we did, and still fell short of Legacy pay while some chastise Spirit for falling short as well.

And if you think every airline CEO is the same when it comes to pay, not even close. I can guarantee you a Barry Biffle/Bill Franke is not equal to an Ed Bastain or a Scott Kirby when how they view their pilot labor. But he glad, you have a CEO is is more in line with the latter group and not the former; I’m glad to have him as the CEO after Ted goes.

Both sides have a ways to go in the JCBA.
Cant wait until we are a big happy family and I’m enjoying that free WiFi and delicious meals.

Does a cook at Outback or McDonalds make as much as a cook at Ruth's Chris?

>Temporary Contract Extension includes the agregate of the Legacy pay

> Cinco "UM ACKSHUALLY IF YOU DIDN'T STRIKE FOR THOSE RATES OR PERSONALLY NEGOTIATE THEM YOURSELF THEY DONT COUNT"

In that case is American not a legacy? They just put their rates at where UA and DLs were. I am definitely grateful to AA UL DL and AL for going first and setting expectations and doing a lot of the heavy lifting to make it easier for us, but c'mon lets not act like the journey to the rates is more important than the destination.

This is a tired and outdated analogy. McDonald’s is an entry level job, being a chef at a high end steak house isn’t. Like it or not, legacy jobs are as easy to obtain now as a ULCC and perhaps easier than a regional job. So the analogy is tired.

Use that lump 3’ above your behind and instead, make an argument of revenue streams and how legacy airlines currently have many revenue streams at their disposal which helps their business. Legacy airlines are now banks that fly airplanes

Strawman, is that you? It’s the choice of the word “fought for” which I found interesting. But hey, that’s fine. I knew a lot of guys in the military who “fought” in the war, while scanning CAC cards in the DFAC for one rotation.

Does not change the fact one bit that when you have a CEO who publicly acknowledges pilot pay needs to come up at their airline, it will help the pathways to secure items like market rate adjustments and profit sharing. When you have a management group who states the opposite, it’s a much tougher road.

Strawman it all you want, it’s not the complicated to understand.

Football kicking off, see you ladies later. 🫡

Of all the things that didn't happen, this one didn't happen the most.

Exactly…….biggest troll thread ever.

This is probably the worst rationalization of a flawed perspective that I have ever read. Bus pilots are bus pilots. Pay scales should be comparable across the board. If the ULCC can’t afford to pay-to-play, their business model is flawed.

Your union definitely has more teeth than ours does, no question about that, but the B6 CEO is also more willing to play ball than our management team.

NK pilots badly need to get divorced from the current management in order to move on. There is way too much infedility and bad blood from the not so distant past that it really isn't a reconciable relationship IMO.

You wouldn't know much about that if you haven't been working here for the last several years.

Legacy jobs being "easy" to get is a new and temporary thing. If you want to go to a legacy, then go. If you want to be a discount pilot at a discount airline, then stay where you are.

Discount airlines ARE an entry level job for pilots that can't get hired at a legacy. Period.

Wow, you are a stage-4 clinger, no doubt. And a class 1 ball-bag.

We have hundreds of legacy furloughs, that have seen both models, and elected not to return after the recalls. Our (JB) pay and benefits has, at times, exceeded legacy pay. This industry is ALWAYS changing and shifting. No airline has EVER been at the top and stayed there. Good luck with your giant ego, I have no doubt you wear your hat while at the controls, even if your legacy doesn't have a hat.

And whether you are trying to criticize NK or JB, it is highly likely the two will be coming together in the coming months, and achieving a JCBA that meets or EXCEEDS the big four.

So this is either the worst attempt at trolling I've seen in memory or you are as stupid as you are arrogant.

Maybe it’s more cope than justification. It’s the response I have heard multiple times.

I can’t say I’m surprised that I am getting pushback for telling pilots they should be paid as much as their peers.

Exactly. You get it. I hope everyone brings this attitude instead of making excuses.

one of the dumbest posts I’ve read on a forum that has posters like dOOfff to compete against

Blastin over WATRS, looking at nothing but open ocean and the stars, 235 SOBs, I remember thinking to myself I should make less than the people moving less people in the same plane on the exact same route because our seats are thin and a couple of the passengers have face tattoos.

I just brought my popcorn and came by here for the comments. This is getting entertaining!

I know who you are. I had to slap your hands off the controls. Still mad huh?

The ULCC business model is flawed; the legacies have countered ULCCs by matching their fares with Basic Economy. And the legacies skim off the ULCC's (profitable) top fare buckets so that ULCCs aren't able to be much more than marginally profitable. The legacies will let ULCCs run their $29 loss leader sales all day long, but start matching ULCC fares as soon as the fare gets close to $100.

This is how I see it as well. And the full service airlines are generally expanding their Basic Economy offerings, especially United.

As a former LCC pilot, I take your point. There have been points in history where a particular pilot may be better off at a LCC.

Fact is, those times are the exception and not the norm. Your post raised another point. NK and B6 have guys furloughed from legacy carriers. They didn’t just get up and decide to leave.

No doubt, they’ve done very well for themselves, but the fact is that almost all the movement is from LCC to a legacy.

Should LCC guys get paid legacy rates? Absolutely. But it’s going to take time, and in that time, some opt to just go to a legacy and get the money now. All things being equal, they’ll come out ahead. They’re not any better just because their airline has been around longer.