That's great that he is...wonder why he got pay and contract out of my post. Like I said earlier, I was bringing this point up for the furloughed pilots at spirit. My friend and her furloughed brethren cannot get an answer from their mec detailing to them how they fought for leave of absences, yet were denied. They are looking for answers and have not been provided with them. And yes she has contacted the spirit mec, with no response as of yet. Well, actually she did get a scathing response from this Doug guy, who I guess was voted out recently. All they want are answers to how the union fought for them.

My feelings are this. Your "friend" has a right to be upset about the way the recalls went down. But to expect this airline to care about its employees and frankly seem upset that they don't give a crap surprised me. Where have they been for the past 2.5 years while all the mistreatment went down over and over again? Did they not stay in the loop on what was going on in the company? Not only does this company not care about its employees, it does it on purpose. This is common knowledge. To expect anything more than being treated like garbage is asinine. The company "may grant" personal leaves of absence. Nowhere does it say they have to. I have worked for good companies who have done close to the same thing. Sad but it is common to the airline business.

This pilot group will allow it to occur. Why? Because they are fractured. Some are happy, some ashamed, some extremely angry(ram ;)). The unions response to this situation is questionable. Were they aware it was an issue? Were the correct MEC members and reps contacted?

Please do not say that I am part of the problem. I support your "friend" in her quest. I am a realist and have completely accepted what NK is and what they do. Will I try to affect change? Maybe one I get back, but until I reach that point there is nothing I can do.

Good luck.

To boredwlife....I appreciate your honesty. I wasn't implying that you are a part of the problem. What you wrote echoes the way many feel to a T. It is a shame not to expect more from the union. Like I said earlier, I don't fly for spirit, I just got angry hearing the situation. Best of luck to you in your career. Thanks again for your honest perspective, it's refreshing to see someone come out and put how they really feel out here, instead of just laying low with the rank and file.

I guess I'm what Ramrod calls a CBA bully. Not sure I fit the description of bully, but whatever. I'll do my best to just reference what you said and how it actually pertains to our contract.

Our contract does not regulate what type of training a recall furloughee receives; that would be the FARs and the FOTM (flt ops training manual). What both say is, after 24 months, a returning pilot is to receive a "full" training cycle (indoc, etc.). So your 36 months reference holds no water.

As for those that may return inside of 24 months: the training dept. will provide a shortened syllabus training program. It has in the past included about 4 sessions in the simulator, with several PT sessions in a mock-up beforehand. This has proven sufficient for other returning furloughs, as I am unaware of any washouts of any returning pilot within the last year.

The big question concerning training is this: Why on earth would Spirit management want to set someone up to fail? Wouldn't it cost more to bring in a replacement for that person? Think about it...the airline has already had that person on property before, so the guesswork (both personality and ability) has been covered already.

Not sure what you receive at United, but we are all in possession of a pretty decent powerpoint A/V program that does a nice job with the Airbus' systems. We ALL have it- even those currently out on furlough. IMHO, if you watch that through 2 or 3 times, you've got a good handle on what our IPs expect out of your systems knowledge. As for the sim: Is your Airbus really that hard to fly at United? Really?

According to our (newly anointed) VP of Flt Ops, the desperate need for pilots is not currently driven by "extreme growth", it is due to his belief in a realistic staffing model.

Our "recently escorted out of the building" Senior Crew Planning Director used a former NWA VP's view at pilot staffing- that is, razor thin staffing, throw it in open time and let the pilots pick it up. Problem is, no one is picking it up. So this "desperate need" of pilots is actually being driven by an attempt by management to actually staff the airline somewhat properly.

Which leads us to the mandatory recall (and decision to deny further LOAs). Actually, the intent on the recall is to issue 4 different vacancy bids from Jan-Apr and allow the returning furloughs to pick a date of return within that time frame. Our contract is very clear: with an acceptable reason, an LOA will be granted for 6 months, and may be extended beyond 6 months with the consent of the VP Flt Ops. If the mandatory went out at the end of October...what's 6 months beyond that date?

Here's where captscott was referencing pay rate. I agree, we should pay a fair first-year rate like United. Oh, wait...that's $33/hour...or $5.50/hour less than Spirit's new first-year rate. Nevermind. If I were a first-year guy, I'd rather make the latter there.

And if you guys pay $33 and Continental pays $31, I wonder where the NK side of the table got their ammo for decreasing the first-year rate by a buck-and-a-half?

That's the stone you threw.

Gator,

Thanks for the posts. But there a few things wrong. The company will not grant a LOA with a good reason, the contract states that they "may", not "will". All furloughed pilots received a letter stating that there would be absolutely no LOA's.

Also as for the training. I believe it to be a little short on what we need. We do not get the full training cycle. We get what is called curriculum B.

"
Dequalified 12 but less than 36 months ‐ must complete requalification curriculum B to requalify."

This is an extremely short ground school and 3 sims followed by a PC. This comes straight out of the FOM.

I'll ask a question with regards to unions and what they do/provide: Do some of you think they are like Santa Claus?

gatorbird, again you missed the entire point of my post. I can appreciate you clarifying some things I stated...thats cool. In no way was I comparing Spirit's first year pay to United's...did I ever compare the two? It's obvious Spirit pays more than United first year....anybody can read that off the website...I was referencing how in your new CBA the first year FO pay actually decreased!!!! How can you go on strike and then decrease first year pay? To me that seems like nobody cares about the new guys on property. That's my opinion and is not really up for argument. If you dont agree then thats fine...but thats the way it looks to me. And for training cycles etc, frankly I could care less...I just think it's bush league that the airline did not offer leave of absences to furloughed pilots who worked hard to get there, and now have to resign their seniority number because of the "staffing model" as you put it. My friend has a phenomenal job now and makes way more than she ever could at spirit, not to mention the job security, yet she suffers from the same disease we all do....the love of flying. That's why these airlines can bully us all around...we would be willing to fly for peanuts...that's why I accepted low first year pay at United...as you graciosuly pointed out in your post. And, in my opinion again, if a bunch of the furloughs dont come back at 61 bucks an hour, or whatever the pay is, its actually cheaper in the long run to get new hires at the new, lower, first year pay rate of 38 bucks an hour. Again, thats just my opinion and I dont care who agrees or disagrees.

boredwlife, actually they did grant one loa, and thats a fact, to a female furloughed pilot. That totally blows the "no leave of absences will be granted" as stated on that letter out of the water.