I'm thinking the "meltdown" and lack of reserves are making them rethink our bases? We have a lot of bases for such a small airline. Bases require Reserves.

Clearly i have no idea how to run an airline, I assume more bases equals the need for more total crews etc? just thinking out loud :)

Where the hell is my "significant progress has been made but a substantial gap remains". "We made it clear that we won't be undervalued". Update?!!!!


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The line of conversation was about "de-hubbing ACY and opening ATL as a base." I was merely responding to the ability to operate ATL as a base without the availability of numerous Gates. But I hope for your sake that ACY is safe from closure.

ACY seems like a great back door into the NYC and PHL markets. Why leave?

Not leaving, a base can open or close without any change in the flight schedule.

finally got the making progress but significant differences remain email. woo hoo!

its like watching an old flick that was redone

Meanwhile, it seems SWA has an AIP... I'm curious what their new rates would be...

The 29/7 was mentioned. Removing 29/7 renders the transition conflict language next to worthless except for a couple other instances. It also boosts the groups productivity significantly the rest of the month if lost. Productivity increases reduce staffing requirements. Reduction of staffing requirement can drastically affect your relative seniority for long periods of time and maybe your whole career. We all know how seniority affects your day to day and just about everything from what base you can hold to what vacation you get. It also affects upgrades. And at this airline you absolutely have to upgrade to make any money.

I mentioned this productivity issue with the efb loa and nobody listened. It got the company a permanent 1% staffing reduction forever. We got 10hrs of pay. Everything has a price I understand. If we as a group don't mind the seniority ramifications of something as huge as 29/7 then I'm fine with that but we sure as **** better get something amazing for it. I'm talking truly amazing. And when you are the seller in any negotiation it's not about how valuable it is to you but how valuable it is to the buyer that determines what the price is. While some of you may not care I can assure you that this one work rule is the company's number one target right behind getting a pbs system which they know they won't get. We have what they want more than anything and I say we sell for nothing less than having the absolute best contract in the industry starting with section 1. They can and will pay for it. If they don't want to then it's not for sale.

I'm on board, damn, make this guy a negotiator! I was against the efb loa, I'm against giving anything away.

Yeah I know we will. I just wanted tough talk on record before we see a TA. I just read the update email, saw the 29/7 language. But, hey look we'll have higher hourly pay rates so we'll look good on the APC airline profiles page.

I thought the official fall-back whiner position of APCers was that transition only helped the ubber-senior that were lucky enough to work the system. Now one piece of that may be gone, and it's the end of the world. For the record, I don't like giving up 29/7 either.

And yeah, you were the only one against the efb loa.

So is the 29/7 being trading for J.B. + 3% pay rates? I'm new, what's the 29/7? Sorry for asking.

From a pay perspective that's actually true. From a productivity, seniority, and value perspective it's item number one and that affects us all. It's our number one piece of leverage for a truly industry leading contract.

You cannot be scheduled to fly more than 29 hours in 7 calendar days. A holdover from old 121 rules that is codified in the CBA.

I personally like it, because I can cause all sorts of transition conflicts even if I don't work every single day in a row during transition.

People who like to pick up OT at 100% hate it because they can't pick up some high credit trips. And it does make trading some 4 day sequences problematic...

Thanks didn't know if the 29/7 was something else. Does anyone at the Union have any idea the productive gains the company would get or how it would change the Crew scheduling matrix if the 29/7 was gone? Just wondering..

Would you guys knock off the speculation? JetBlue rates plus 3%? Did you hear that from the same "legitimate" source that said we were close to a TA a day ago?

Wait for the TA, read it carefully and then decide.

On the 29/7, I'd gladly get rid of it if we got rid of trip averaging and a real min per calendar day. 5.25 or higher. I'd rather be paid when I'm at work and have more efficient trips then be capped. If you can credit 32-35 hours in 6 days it means more days off. Days you won't need to fight for a conflict. Just my opinion.

I've had the 29/7 rule burn me more than it's helped. A bunch of trades I couldn't do because of it. It would have really helped me in the transition for Aug/sep but I wasn't senior enough to get the line that I wanted. So I'll gladly see it go. And I'm not one to pick up 100% trips. Just trying to improve my days off usually.

This...Go to work, work hard, go home. As far as "industry average" goes, our trips are very inefficient for pay. No more 28 hour 6 days!

All legit takes on 29/7. I'm not advocating keeping it or letting it go I'm just hoping we realize it's value to the company and it's a lot more than a 5.25 min day. That's what delta got for it in their part 117 loa last year. Ask them if they'd do it again. That one item is our highest leverage. Once the company has it in hand they have zero incentive to give us anything more. Attrition is the only other thing that could push them for a better contract and it's very slow at this time and collectively we don't control it. We own 29/7 and control it's worth if we are smart. It's only 2nd to going from hard lines to pbs on a productivity and value scale. Would we even consider pbs for a 5.25 min day? I don't think so. For an industry leading contract I'm sure. This is that valuable to them.

No way JB +3% is even presented to us. These guys know they'd be out on there arse in a flash.
I'm not blind enough to think they are going to offer AA rates out of the gate but no way our NC stupid enough to even present to us such a low ball offer. There would be pitchforks and torches.

Anyone willing to pm me the load of NK 567 from dtw to atl today on 5 sep?

What are the odds for an OAL JS?

If I don't make it and flt is too late, option B is a very short time to make it.

Thanks

Right now it's wiiiiiiiiide open.

ok thanks also assuming that nk will take more than two JS's.

I do believe it's an unlimited jumpseat policy, yes.

I do believe we need more productive trips, regardless of whether 29/7 stays or goes. In fact, I think more productive trips would help in just about every aspect.

The trips ARE productive, for Spirit. If we want productive pairings we'll need to negotiate differently than we've done in the past. Don't hold your breath.

Calender day pay will never return. We fly too many single duty period trips that span two calender days, aka red eye turns. Our CBA is basic and unsophisticated. It will need to become complicated, become specialized, in order to properly address multi day pairings.

Here's the rhetotic

1. We are a ulcc without the economy of scale of the legacies therefore we can't get paid their rates and get their benefits.

2. A quick deal gets money in your pocket sooner than a protracted negotiation so you end up with more money

3. This is the best we can get. If you vote NO we won't see another deal for several years.



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As far as 2&3 are concerned I agree there is logic in taking the lower pay early and "ending up with more". But then again so do the company bean counters. This is the base line for all negotiations. There is no other amount. It's always this lower amount.
And for number 1, yes we don't yet have the economy of scale. We negotiate on both current and future earnings. Also the company is making plenty of money without economy of scale and we have a big part of this. And lastly this lack of scale prevents us pilots from changing to larger equipment like the legacies and reduce our long term earning potential. We should be compensated for this too.

Mec podcast, same cr@@p, not even a word about the relief, excep, he EXPECTS TO GET A RETURN FAVOR at the bargaining table for all above and beyond efforts we made as a group. Awesome. We are in good hands.

Sailor, were you affected by the CBA relief? I still haven't found one person who was affected. If you were affected, you do realize you could have told them no? I'm sick of whining from people who weren't affected at all.

When significant leverage for a new CBA is given away for free, we definately indeed were all affected.

If you work for NK UNDER THIS CONTRACT, you were affected.
I'm SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE that think that only we have a problem when they are directly affected by something. This relief affected all of us with nothing in return.

Damn skippy! We were ALL affected, as we are all part of the same pilot group, same Union. What affects one of us, affects all of us. This management team needs to be reminded of that, but I see nothing that says they accept that. Not in their 'public' actions at least, maybe there's some sort of quid pro quo behind the scenes.

Real douche thing to say. Way to look like an asshat.

I thought there were 400 plus grievances filed.

I was affected. There you know one.


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Thanks Captain Lonestar. Thanks for being a wonderful champion of labor relief on a contract that was signed 5 years prior and weathered the storm of multiple meltdowns prior to this "dire need." We were all affected from senior line holders to the bottom reserve. The grievance process was inundated from it.

But please let me guess - you're part of the SPA ALPA internal spin machine that's now finally beginning to grab your bullhorn and busload of sheep to pump the masses full of Ackerman's snake oil on why this contract will be the best thing for us, regardless of the truth. Don't worry, the rest of us will see through how ever many propaganda handles you utilize.

Lmfao, I can't 🔥😂