Originally Posted by skybolt (Post 1980800)

You started off on the right track, then went sideways with this comment,

The lack of true unity building events/exercises/activities is the primary signpost to me that we were in trouble from the beginning. THAT lack is what has me worried.

Under the RLA, we have almost zero leverage in negotiations. We are legally bound to work according to our past amendable date CBA. We can't walk away, we can't wildcat strike, we can't pull of CHAOS. We just can't withhold our services.

Which leaves us where? How do we obtain leverage?

1. The free market can grant us an advantage. When the company is unable to fill seats due to their lack of competitiveness in the job market, then the company will have to improve conditions to attract candidates. That's not really "leverage" but it certainly works in our favor.

2. We threaten to strike. BTW, a strike is not "leverage", a strike is a failure of negotiations. The THREAT of the strike is the leverage, not the strike. (That statement comes directly from the ALPA SPSC National Chair in 2007, and from the ALPA National staff negotiation trainer of the same era)

So where am I going with this you ask. Here >>>>To present a credible threat to the company, the pilot group has to become accustomed to acting per MEC direction, to moving together when the MEC says move, to follow the leadership closely enough to scare the company into believing - to accepting - that the pilots can pull off a successful strike.

We win, when the company realizes that a strike will cost them more than paying us not to strike, and that realization causes them to pay up rather than face a strike. In short, we need the unity events to build that unity and to show the company our resolve to improve our contract.

PS, we need unity events, NOT roadshows of a non existent TA.

Originally Posted by Rainbows (Post 1980907)

I went back and just read what I wrote and even I wasn't sure what I meant. What I meant by the unity sessions is, what changed? There was so much talk of meeting before the amendable date, how much ground work was being done, how much goodwill there was between the company and the pilots. Are we, as pilots asking SO much from the company that there's no way the company can give us what we deserve? I highly doubt it, especially pay wise. This company is practically printing money and no one really believes that's going to end, pay raises and retirement isn't going to out much of a dent in returns or profits. My guess is, there's some future planning going on that what we're asking for, whether it be in the form of scope of merger language that the company can't possibly agree. So, I go back to the unity meetings. Did the NC and MEC know something they weren't telling us? No I'm not wearing a tin hat, yes I do love me some conspiracies, but the last email stating modest progress yet significant differences remain sounds like this will become fairly protracted.

Originally Posted by skybolt (Post 1980800)

You started off on the right track, then went sideways with this comment,

The lack of true unity building events/exercises/activities is the primary signpost to me that we were in trouble from the beginning. THAT lack is what has me worried.

Under the RLA, we have almost zero leverage in negotiations. We are legally bound to work according to our past amendable date CBA. We can't walk away, we can't wildcat strike, we can't pull of CHAOS. We just can't withhold our services.

Which leaves us where? How do we obtain leverage?

1. The free market can grant us an advantage. When the company is unable to fill seats due to their lack of competitiveness in the job market, then the company will have to improve conditions to attract candidates. That's not really "leverage" but it certainly works in our favor.

2. We threaten to strike. BTW, a strike is not "leverage", a strike is a failure of negotiations. The THREAT of the strike is the leverage, not the strike. (That statement comes directly from the ALPA SPSC National Chair in 2007, and from the ALPA National staff negotiation trainer of the same era)

So where am I going with this you ask. Here >>>>To present a credible threat to the company, the pilot group has to become accustomed to acting per MEC direction, to moving together when the MEC says move, to follow the leadership closely enough to scare the company into believing - to accepting - that the pilots can pull off a successful strike.

We win, when the company realizes that a strike will cost them more than paying us not to strike, and that realization causes them to pay up rather than face a strike. In short, we need the unity events to build that unity and to show the company our resolve to improve our contract.

PS, we need unity events, NOT roadshows of a non existent TA.

Originally Posted by Rainbows (Post 1980907)

I went back and just read what I wrote and even I wasn't sure what I meant. What I meant by the unity sessions is, what changed? There was so much talk of meeting before the amendable date, how much ground work was being done, how much goodwill there was between the company and the pilots. Are we, as pilots asking SO much from the company that there's no way the company can give us what we deserve? I highly doubt it, especially pay wise. This company is practically printing money and no one really believes that's going to end, pay raises and retirement isn't going to out much of a dent in returns or profits. My guess is, there's some future planning going on that what we're asking for, whether it be in the form of scope of merger language that the company can't possibly agree. So, I go back to the unity meetings. Did the NC and MEC know something they weren't telling us? No I'm not wearing a tin hat, yes I do love me some conspiracies, but the last email stating modest progress yet significant differences remain sounds like this will become fairly protracted.

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot (Post 1980947)

Did I miss the news that said they no showed

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot (Post 1980947)

Did I miss the news that said they no showed

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot (Post 1980947)

Did I miss the news that said they no showed

Originally Posted by putzin (Post 1980968)

First day= rough
Second day= good progress
Third day= no show, no call

9/25 Bendo put out podcast, "met with alpa 3 days"

Call your rep....

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot (Post 1980971)

I don't need to call my rep. The entire pilot group needs this information. If it is fact we should be told

Originally Posted by Rainbows (Post 1980814)

Theiy'rres a lot going unsaid I think. (I just had to use it)

Originally Posted by Left Handed (Post 1981071)

Well, at least you used it correctly.

Originally Posted by Hercguy (Post 1981144)

I hate to be the grammar nazi, but I'm pretty sure it's "Theiy'rre's" (one of the very few double apostrophe words). :)

Originally Posted by putzin (Post 1980976)

Agreed. Info came from a rep, I'm just not sure why it was not put out in a message.

Originally Posted by Plane Ramrod (Post 1980562)

To put it in pre 2009 terms: yes, we shot ourselves in the foot with the DL LOA, but MM handed us the loaded .357.

Originally Posted by A320Flyer (Post 1981586)

Y'all having fun yet? Ahhh, I love the smell of 2010 in the morning (with a much weaker leadership aroma to it).

Originally Posted by A320Flyer (Post 1981586)

Y'all having fun yet? Ahhh, I love the smell of 2010 in the morning (with a much weaker leadership aroma to it).

Originally Posted by putzin (Post 1981676)

We're all waiting though for your expertise to 'lead us to the promise land', flyer..... Just let us know and we'll be sure to vote for ya.

Originally Posted by Plane Ramrod (Post 1981671)

We didn't exactly have Patton and MacArthur back in 2010 either. At least they were too busy publishing JA lists and putting a spike in premium pay to sign away section 25 in it's entirety under the guise of "goodwill".

Originally Posted by A320Flyer (Post 1981759)

Agreed. But at least, in my view, they weren't trying to blow smoke up our arses about how nice and cooperative management is. I'd never envision the "old guys" answering phones in SOC to please the COO and in exchange of goodwill. FUPM!

Originally Posted by Plane Ramrod (Post 1981772)

Weren't blowing smoke? YGTBSM! The same group that said if you vote no, we are in no-man's land? The same group that showed us a TA 3 weeks after we went back to work? Same group that showed their technical competence by not including a contingency in the back to work agreement about what happens if there was a no vote? Or was that planned as leverage to use against us?

Originally Posted by A320Flyer (Post 1981796)

They did blow smoke, lots of it, but it was to clearly further ALPA National's agenda.

Originally Posted by Plane Ramrod (Post 1981772)

Weren't blowing smoke? YGTBSM! The same group that said if you vote no, we are in no-man's land? The same group that showed us a TA 3 weeks after we went back to work? Same group that showed their technical competence by not including a contingency in the back to work agreement about what happens if there was a no vote? Or was that planned as leverage to use against us?

Originally Posted by skybolt (Post 1981830)

You are both correct. A320 said that they weren't blowing smoke regarding "how nice and cooperative management is", and that's true. SC and DP (especially DP) made it perfectly clear that they weren't friends with management.

And of course, Ram you are 100% correct about the MEC/NC blowing smoke about anything else.

For the peanut gallery, I leave it at this, we went on strike to make big gains, to place our contract on par with our peers. What we received from the strike was hugely disproportional to the risk we
took by walking out. When the MEC/NC got called out in road shows for the inadequacy of the TA, their answer was as Ramrod states. They blew smoke up our skirts by failing to inform us that they had ALREADY legally obligated us to return to work under the TA.

When Ram talks, those of us who were here, we tend to listen!

Originally Posted by Tine (Post 1981905)

What should we do? It's multiple choice.

A. Quit and go on LTD
B. Go to China and hide
C. Quit, and put SPA in receivership
D. Go to Olive Garden and complain umongst ourselves
E. Displace the LEC via base closure so you can work with snakes
F. Change the pay schedule, "to eliminate pay discrepancies" via LOA
G. Login via 9 different user names on APC and push your agenda
H. All of the above
I. ****

I vote "I"
😀

Originally Posted by Tine (Post 1981905)

What should we do? It's multiple choice.

A. Quit and go on LTD
B. Go to China and hide
C. Quit, and put SPA in receivership
D. Go to Olive Garden and complain umongst ourselves
E. Displace the LEC via base closure so you can work with snakes
F. Change the pay schedule, "to eliminate pay discrepancies" via LOA
G. Login via 9 different user names on APC and push your agenda
H. All of the above
I. ****

I vote "I"
😀

Originally Posted by flyingpuma1 (Post 1982114)

A won't work well for long since our LTD is crappy and only goes for 2 years after that as long as you can breathe and say "welcome to wal-mart" they kick you off LTD

Originally Posted by InTrail (Post 1982144)

Not True. Read more carefully....Reps please chime in and explain it to him.

It sucks, but not that bad

Originally Posted by Hugedouche (Post 1982151)

Not sure what you mean could YOU please explain it?? I'm sure I read somewhere that it only covered 24 months period

Originally Posted by InTrail (Post 1982158)

It pays 24 month, no questions asked as long as you cant fly. After that it pays the full benefit as long as you cant work at something that you already are qualified to do that pays 80 % of your base pay, till you are 65

Originally Posted by flyingpuma1 (Post 1982159)

Yes and on FO pay that is manager at walmart.

Originally Posted by flyingpuma1 (Post 1982159)

You also have to apply for social security disability after 24 months and if you get that then they don't pay as much either.

Originally Posted by flyingpuma1 (Post 1982159)

. I thought it was only 60% but I will check tomorrow. Because at 80% it would be 20% more than they pay the first 24 months, which is 60% of base pay.