I was referring to the group looking as a whole not as an individual. I'm with you that individual policies are not as beneficial on the open market and are pricey. To get the group on board here I think would be a stretch so hopefully people take this serious in the next contract. Hell we could all benefit in our twilight years when we lose our medical's for the dreaded snoring/sleep apnea! Probably the best thing the faa did for a pilot if you don't want to drive to 65 and make money while snoring!

All 20 of us.

As someone that's also had the displeasure of being on LTD for a year. This about sums it up!

This is also very accurate! Although eligible for LTD at 90 days, Principal does their very best to not pay you. It's a never-ending paper-chase with them. They're always looking for ways to not pay you, or reduce the amount they have to pay. It's a joke!
I never saw a nickel from them until the 6 month mark. Then, because I was also eligible for state disability (which we're forced to pay for ourselves), Principal reduced my benefits because of it.
So I had the pleasure of paying the state so Principal could benefit. That was really nice of me...glad I could help that major money-making corporation out in MY TIME OF NEED! Go F@&$ yourself, Principal.
That's outstanding and a perfect example of how jacked up our insurance industry in America is.

I've been trying to spread the word online but most of the guys I fly with are either unaware of how awful our LTD plan is, or seem to think it's not a very big deal because they probably won't have to use it. I think there might be enough guys interested if there was an organized effort to come up with a superior LTD policy funded by the pilot group. Education is critical here. Right now, the most extensive information regarding our LTD policy can be found on this forum. Even if you're motivated enough to hound HR, it's hard to find any details regarding our policy other than the buy up option. I think most guys here are blissfully ignorant of just how awful our policy is. It would be nice to know what improvements the NC is looking to make. One way or another, we need to have a better LTD plan than this worthless piece of garbage we have now.

Twilight years? I'm 33 and almost lost my medical last year.

Yep, I'm older than that but no where near my "twilight years". When I talked to guys I was flying with about LTD they usually didn't care, no one cares about it until it's too late. As bad as our ltd is it's better than what I had at my last company which is a big reason why I came here. What is sad however is that the regional I flew at was far better than this fiasco of LTD I have been dealing with. Principle is also a POS to deal with, good luck getting a hold of anyone ever, takes about a week to call you back. Then there is always the never ending paper chase they have you go on, once you give them that they want something else. So it's never just the waiting period of 3 months then they start paying as someone else said they drag their feet as much as possible. Which is really helpful after you have had basically no money coming in for months.

41 when I lost mine so I know how it feels already. Lucky to have it back is how I look at it now. People underestimate how important this may be for their future because of youth, or the won't happen to me mentality.

I had the same paper chase until I actually caught the principal rep in a lie saying they didn't speak to my doctor. I was calling from my doctors office when I was told this so he promptly changed tone when I handed the phone to my Doc. Definitely a pain in the rear for sure.

Nice! I had my wife take a week and drive me around to every place they needed records from and fax them while I was standing there, I also took the copies with me as well as the fax conformation sheets, that finally worked for me.

NC mail out, meeting 14-16 OCT.

According to the Spirit HR office, our LTD goes to SS retirement age as long as you don't have previous experience, training or education in a field that could pay you 80% of your pre disability base earnings. In all cases, you get 24 months essentially unquestioned, after which the ins company will try to find a way to prove that you are otherwise able to earn that 80%. *

According to the SPA ALPA NC Contract Comparison distributed to the group in early June, HR is correct.

Has anyone here gone past 24 months? If so, what did the Ins co do after that time period.

I'm about to apply for LTD, but I hope to be back at work before it even kicks in, BUT even though I don't expect to be affected this time, this is a serious issue that needs attention in negotiations. If our LTD is only good for 24 months we definitely need to fix that.

* I was off for 18 months in 2003 and 2004, the policy DID work this way back then. But, the policy administrator has changed twice since then. We shall see. My experience with the current Spirit HR has been exceptional. From what I read, the problem will occur with the principle financial people.

Anybody else get the impression that the NC was implying that mediation was binding? They took a lot of time managing expectations on keeping work rules. All-in-all not a positive update.

Do you have a college degree? If so, you have an education to earn up to 80% of your predisability earnings. If you think for a second that this will not be what the insurance company says, you are wrong.

The only pilot LTD pilicies worth a shiit are based on holding a first class medical, have no offsets for other income or personal policies, and pay to 65.

Yes, that's what I got from it as well, but every single communication about this has been at best a guessing game.

I just read the email. I'm seeing them laying the expectations that this is going to be a long protracted fight. There cannot be a dollar figure attached to the work rules, the four days off, the transition conflict, line bidding or anything else that affects the quality of life. Sure, if the company wants to pay me a yearly wage that exceeds $500K a year, I'd entertain the notion, but short of that, I might as well go elsewhere. I'm seeing a whole lot of meeting to schedule more meetings to run around each other at the negotiating table in our future. I didnt see anything positive in this update.

I bet the company is presenting dollar figures for PBS vs. line bidding and transition conflict vs no conflict. They'll want that taken from the overall compensation package and say with those numbers plus x amount of pay and x amount of retirement we will make what Delta, AA, and United make. They know exactly how much the conflict costs them. That's why they didn't honor it and fought it.

This I all a numbers game to them. How can they give us the least amount of compensation and make us work the most. It's exactly what happened in 2010. We gained a little here and there and lost in other places. The current contract was cost neutral for the first 3 years.

When I went out 12 years ago for 18 months, the policy specifically stated that I would be paid unless I had previous training, education or experience in a field/occupation/job description that would pay 80% of my base pay. Not just any education MY education. FWIW, I have decades old Associated degree in professional aviation and a ERAU Bachelors in Professional Aeronautics. Please show me where I can make $130K/yr with that degree.

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you. I think that we need, must demand, better. We just need to talk reality, not conjecture.

They're too busy working us to vote for whatever they negotiate, they don't see that they're disclosing their goals.

Agreed, not a positive update. But, I don't expect any update. I expect the MEC, the Communications Committee, the P2P, etc, to work at keeping us unified and working together. I expect the NC to negotiate, leave the comm up to the Comm Committee and stop begging us for validity.

add in edit: I don't want an update. I want the MEC and NC to work and get the best deal available. If that takes more than six weeks, that's all the update I need. That is, time passing and time past should be an adequate indicator of negotiation progress. That is (2), the company can make a deal in short order if they want to, any lengthy timespan indicates a recalcitrant management team.

I totally agree. I'm expecting industry standard pay and retirement with NO change to our work rules. That's what I'm expecting. Anything less is a no vote from me.

I see where youre coming from but if there are no updates from the NC then people will be crying that they haven't heard anything. I'm just as guilty as everyone else wanting information but upset when I read that information.

Well....................yeah, obviously. This is not exclusive to Spirit management. This is exactly our goal in reverse. Our goal is to extract as much money as possible for as little work as possible. I cant fault management for that. Id love for them to throw money at us because they like us so much but im not going to get too terribly negative if they fight us either.

I'm not trying to be negative, I'm being realistic. This is simply a numbers game to them. Period. Are we any different than Delta, AA, JB when it comes to that? Probably not but this management team has gone above and beyond showing us that we are just a number. We are no different than gate agents, rampers, etc. We are an expense and historically spirit management will fight tooth and nail for every penny. They will also willing violate the contract when it soots them, not honoring 4 days off, fighting the bid conflicts and countless other examples.

Historically that's what Spirit does. I wish they would prove me wrong but the more emails that come out from the NC the more I think we are in it for the long run. They did no show Wednesday. That's probably just the start.

well said

(filler)

I hope that continues for you, I've seen nothing but a disaster from our HR. It took me two months and many phone calls, before I got my vacation paid out. I also got a letter from the company saying that my leave wasn't approved After I had already started receiving ltd from the outsourced company, they don't talk to each other at all. Good luck if you have any questions just ask and I will help you out if I can since I'm still dealing with it. Hope you get to feeling better soon.

So how does this make them different from any other airline management? You guys act like spirit is exceptional in their hatred for pilots. They all hate pilots. They all work with the same law firm. Their negotiating is all straight from Ford and Harrison.

"Under mediation, our demands for industry standard pay would be met by demands for industry standard work rules. That said, while our work rules will be exposed to modification in mediation, we are confident that management’s desire for substandard compensation would be equally exposed."
So when we goto mediation, I hope we also point out that spirit makes 30% profit which is double any other airline so the total compensation package should be at least 15% higher than any other airline to include the pay rate, 401k & LTD. Plus what is this "You have to give something to get something crap" Management says we have to do during the best of negotiating economic times since spirit has started? I don't hear any management say that when times are hard. It's usually give give give or we get furloughed or go bankrupt. Just like this summer, oh we are going to have a catatonic meltdown if you don't give give give. Where was management saying oh we will give you something if you give us your time off and extended duty. We did our part but management didn't do their part. So next time management says what are you going to give us for this pay increase better retirement and LTD the NC should say the assurance that when you have another IROP in the future and you WILL HAVE ONE, you won't hear every pilot's voice mail on the entire pilot seniority roster!

Very well said. Wish everyone here thought this way. With the profits we make and the fact that we are so far behind the industry in regards to pay, this is correct.

In regards to work rules, I am not convinced that our work rules are any better than the industry. Some of the work rules are better and some of the work rules are worse. It averages out to industry standard, in my opinion, as far as work rules go.

Example commuter policy. The industry allows a pilot to use the sick bank to compensate the pilot for a lost trip. We lose the pay if we don't make the trip.

Exactly we have some work rules that are better and some that are worse. It all averages out. For some reason many guys here think we have some amazing contract that is industry leading except pay. Simply not true. And the NC is selling that too

As a commuter the four days off is the trump card, the 2 of Spades if you will. The transition conflict is the Ace of Spades. The line bidding is also pretty high up there. Those three little nuggets in our contract make our work rules better than pretty much everywhere else. The rest of the contract is pretty close to everyone else, some thing's are better, some are worse. But, those guaranteed four days off, the transition conflict and line bidding put our contract up on top of the pile as far as qol goes.

Im willing to bet SWA guys probably average somewhere around 4 days off between pairings, and I doubt they have back to back 3-days, or a 4-day, followed by a 2-day. They also have some pretty rock solid trip rigs......................................and their hourly rate is significantly higher than ours.

I hit conflicts every month, and im the first one to say sell it, it requires sacrificing the entire month. Take the "cost" and put it into the rates or something that benefits all of us

Im sure SWA guys get four days off, but they could certainly get lines where they only get two days off or one day off between pairings. They don't have a guarantee of four days off between pairings. I really don't know what they have, I know we have four days off, line bidding and transition conflict and those items are irreplaceable. We get rid of those items for a higher pay rate, we might as well all move on to another airline. Scope, LTD, merger protection are all important, but nothing can replace those three important qol items. Anything that touches any of those three items, its a no vote for me. A NO vote that I will work strenuously and tirelessly to try to influence other pilots to vote NO on as well. As far as I'm concerned, those three items are not touchable and are not on the table.

The rigs are the key, and there has been no mention of them from the NC.

Consider a 6 hr min day:

Even at our ridiculous 95 hour max month is still 15 days off, the 4 days off would take care of themselves.

Tired of doing a 7 hour turn out of someone else's base for 4.5 hours credit? Not any more. Trip averaging pretty much gone.

Would probably reduce some of that airport appreciation time also, since they need to keep you moving during more of your available FDP. Less time available to play information desk attendant in the terminal.

For the love of God do not allow pbs.... We had guys doing 16-18 days in a row last Xmas going through New Years. I can't verify it, but one guy said 23 days in a row.

Put those QOL items in a box and lock it up and toss the key. Once gone they're gone forever. Do not let them have your QOL!

Just my opinion

If you don't know what southwest has how do you know what should or can be negotiated? Education is key. So many guys here have no idea what the other carriers' contracts look like.

You say scope and ltd are important but 4 days and transition are your sticking point. If you lose your medical or your job gets outsourced because of week scope then the items you mentioned don't mean shiit because you'll have 31 days off a month.

Transition is a joke btw. I'm senior enough to get it every month but have to bid lines I don't want to get it and then pick up over top of it to get my pay up. You also end up working the first and last week of every month. I'm not saying give it away but for industry leading pay, retirement, scope, and ltd I'd kiss it goodbye and never look back. I sure wouldn't sell it for less though.

Spot On!....

SWA isn't quite the same as all the other majors, you should know that. I wouldn't want any part of SWA, if I did, I'd apply there. Even so, you're right about the contract studying part. The union sent out a comparison if you remember. Scope? Important, but no more important than anything else. Delta, United, American, even JetBlue, have given up some form of scope, their pilots are still employed and are well paid. I'm NOT advocating giving up scope. Far from it. And LTD, important, yes, but it DOESNT affect every single pilot like pay, retirement, and our important qol rules do. I ain't saying LTD doesn't need improvement, but no improvement to scope or LTD isn't going to necessarily make me vote no, no improvement to pay & retirment or loss of our qol rules will. Think about it, if the only improvements to our next contract was scope and LTD would you vote yes? I doubt it. Vote NO? I bet you would. If the only changes to the contract were in pay & retirement, everything else remaining the same, what would your vote be?

I've said before without massive improvements in both scope and ltd I will vote no. Period.

You say every other airline has given scope and they are still employed which is true but how has their career progression been affected by those scope gives? Massively is the answer and there is a huge dollar amount to that and many were furloughed when they otherwise wouldn't have been even when havoc hit the industry. I'm not saying our jobs will be taken over by rjs but I have given multiple scenarios of how our non existent codeshare language could effectively kill seniority progression for spirit pilots. Your progression is based on growth not retirements and if that growth stops so do you. If they can (one day) grow profitably through codeshare they will and not only will all seniority progression stop but you then have little leverage to negotiate better compensation because they effectively don't need you and you only exist in stagnated limbo because of our current no furlough codesharing clause.

Why do you think southwest management is looking for a major codeshare give in their scope? It's too important to ignore.

Hey, ignorance is bliss and I can't tell the future but insuring against it could prove to be priceless one day.

Please, feel free to continue your blissful journey. You've been warned.

Again, SPOT ON!

I'm not continuing a blissfully ignorant journey. But, I ask again, if the only improvements to a TA are in scope and LTD, are you going to vote yes or no? Scope and LTD are important, don't think I believe they can be tossed aside. But, if scope and ltd stayed the same in this next contract, it's not an automatic no vote from me, we've done just fine over the last five years with things as they are scope wise. I understand that could change, I understand that management COULD change things, but so far that hasn't happened. Im not gonna stand for saying my head is in the sand either, I know what could happen. But, I am saying a change to PBS or a loss of our four day's off would generate an automatic NO! Transition conflict, as long as it doesn't violate the four day off rule, I'll await judgement to see what is offered.

So, if the only improvements to this contract are to scope and ltd you're a yes vote? The two of you putzin and quatsopilot. That's what you guys seem to be saying.

Is scope one of the core sections covered by the focused negotiations? I didnt think it was. You might be setting a high bar.