Crosswind Landings in a Swept Wing jet
 

As a new jet pilot, I am just starting to scratch the surface on this topic.
I would love to hear from some experienced Jet pilots on how to consistently make crosswind landings, with minimal risk of a wing tip strike ( specifcially the CRJ-200.)

I've found some great articles that talk about techniques for various aircraft. On the CRJ-200, There seems to be debate about:

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".
- how much wing low to use?
- how close to the runway to use wing low.
- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. )

Crosswind Landings

Video of Crosswind landing tecchnique
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MwsDskzefo

I fly a Citation X with about a 44 degree (or whatever) wing sweep. How much aileron do I use on crosswinds? Hardly any. The crab and kick method is the most logical one for this bird. For the most part, I will come over the fence at about 130 knots and will allow a flatter approach for visibility. At near moment of ground contact I will kick the rudder and reduce aileron keeping it in slightly of course to the wind.


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Starting on final, be stabilized without adding knots for everybody you know. The importance of speed control comes soon.

Get a feel for the amount of crab angle is required and hence how much you need to decrab. Move your “aimpoint” upwind of the centerline, probably 25’; you want your butt on the upwind side. Remember your mains trail you downwind, so if your butt is on the centerline the mains and, more importantly, the pivot point is downwind and OFF the centerline. The last place you want to start the flare/decrab is on the downwind half of the runway.

As you go thru 20’ (visually, not staring at the RadAlt), maintain centerline, start the flare and “squeeze”out the crab angle. “Kick” implies a rapid, strong input; you are aligning the flight path to the runway. Here’s where speed control is important! If you decrab early, take too big a kick, or play around flaring and getting rid excess speed, drift will rapidly build. Putting the crab BACK in is functionally impossible this close to the surface--go around. It’s probably better to land with some crab on than to touch drifting downwind toward the edges.

Watch the PFD, while the captain is landing. 5* is a lot of bank, strive for wings level at the touchdown and you’ll probably not scrap a wingtip. Usually, you will have some wing down.

Couple of cautions: if you touchdown hard, with bank, the plane we’ll rotate laterally as the grounded gear is the fulcrum and the high side comes to Earth. This can lead to the upwind wing scrapping. As the pilot moves in his seat, it is possible to add some aileron on the wrong side. I’ve seen this in investigations of a CL 300 scrap; crew got the upwind flap canoe. An AF Global reportedly got both wingtips this way.

Excess speed equals float which exactly what you don’t need. That means close watch on final to IAS and keep it under control.

Do NOT get slow or let the pitch (body) angke get too high. High pitch angles out the tips closer to the runway meaning less ckearance. Fly it on at Vref to no less than Vref-5.

Don’t stop flying the plane until taxi speed, the crosswind will try to raise the upwind wing, you’ll need a fair amount of upwind aileron as you slow.

This all comes from 3,500 hours in the Global and Challenger and 5,000 touch and goes instructing in the C-5. Nary a scrap.

I’ve used this video in briefings:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Mv15t2Pg

GF

Great input !
 

Thank you, gentlemen ! Great info ! I will share with the other nuggets.

For the CRJ200..

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".

I would do it really close, like "10". That would prevent side drift. If you're new to the plane, might do it a little higher until you get a feel. With practice on a 200, you can kick it out right into a LDG.

- how much wing low to use?

As much as needed, respecting max demonstrated XW. If I needed a relatively high bank angle for a gust I would take some of that out at the last moment just to be safe... a little drift is better than too much bank, they replace the tires regularly anyway. The CRJ700 is prone to hitting wingtips, I don't recall that being much of an issue on the 200.


- how close to the runway to use wing low.

Somewhere between "20" and touchdown. You can use it a little all the way to touchdown, but go easy when you're new.


- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. ).

You want to nose on the CL when you kick it out. So you have kind of eyeball that with a big crab, YOU will be noticeably off CL (upwind) when crabbing, that way the center of the plane will be on CL the whole time. When you kick it out, the plane will rotate around it's center, moving the nose (and you) onto CL. If you're a little off, no big deal, but on CL is the way Pros do it. On CL gives you margin to either side in case of asymmetric braking, reversers, wind drift, ice, etc.

Thank you .
 

Thank you, Rick Air. Great info. This clears up a lot. I was getting different input from different LCA's.

A firm, quick touchdown while sideslipping the airplane as late as possible is best IMO.

Don’t fear dragging the upwind wing on a normal stiff crosswind. A little slip goes a long way in the duece.

Look at the image of Mesa dragging a wing tip, the picture outside from that cockpit would have been pretty extreme.
The worst I’ve seen are guys who don’t slip (forgot?).

Unnecessarily dropping a wing on the 700 just before touchdown can actually really help your landings until you get the 700 technique down.

Agree with firm quick touchdown.
 

I had one LCA say if you try to flare, and land soft a " crosswind will eat you up in this airplane." That same trip I landed 12 knots steady x wind, and just set it down, with xwind correction as low as possible. Works great. On centerline, no drift. What worries me is the 27 kts.

Just to be clear, there is no rudder to kick out in the flare, there is a crab angle, in coordinated flight, which must be reduced to runway alignment using rudder for longitudinal correction while using aileron to keep the upwind wing from rising due to the yaw. This crosscontrol in the flare is also be called a slip.
Any aileron input error should be to the excess which would put the upwind gear down earlier than the downwind. Some guys do that on purpose.
I've seen more sideslip to landing sideloads on big jets caused by the guy who wants to fly it like a cub than sideloads by guys who did not decrab enough.
If your airplane does autoland read how it corrects for X-wind.
Even on aircraft designed to land in a crab, such as the T-38, most guys naturally gravitated to a decrab in the flare.

Great explanation .
 

Thank you! That makes perfect sense.
I was thinking the wing would raise due to the yaw at last seccond, but the aerodynamics of a landing a swept wing jet were never explained in our training. You would think it would be worth 30 minutes, or so :)

ORD RWY 28 C Winds 200 / 19 KT G 27
 

Nice landing, in my rookie opinion.
What I noticed:

- removed crab as low as possible ; about 5 feet it seemed ?
- still had some crab into wind.
- appeared to touchdown in slight crab, with slight side load.
- straightened nose after touch down.
- kept wings level. ( no chance of wing strike.)

Any thoughts on this one ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wol0Lh10gOs

technique is technique but I don’t know anyone who lands in the crab except by accident.
This guys downwind wing definitely dips for lack of ailerons control.
There is plenty of aileron control and no need to side load these airplanes in normal ops.

What isn’t technique is momentum.

FYI, 777F cross-wind limits are 38 knots. With a x-wind component in excess of 28 knots, it's not possible to get to zero crab and the aircraft must be landed while crabbed.

Also, the aircraft is actually certified to land up to the maximum crosswind limits in a full crab (not my first choice of technique, personally). While not recommended on a dry runway in very strong x-winds, this is actually may be desirable with a slippery runway.

Pilot didn’t fully decrab; the right (downwind) wing dropped as the gear “took out the crab” the hard way. The rotation on the pivot point caused the wing to drop. It’s hard for a pilot to input aileron to stop the wingtip drop caused this way, as the rotation about the downwind gear is sudden and concurrent with touchdown. You are being, to some degree, being “tossed” in your seat at the same time as the wingtip moves. This is how downwind tips get stuck.

Better to land with some crab on than overdo the decrab input and land in a drift with the nose pointed a bit downwind.

Interesting. Makes me think of that Boeing x-wind cert video.
For clarity in my previous post I was speaking of the CRJ series specifically, I hope I wouldn’t be such a jack wagon to speak in as general terms as it looked.

Good catch on noticing the downwind wing
 

I was focused on the upwing wing, and crab angle.

I’ve done investigations on strikes.

GF

CRJ. Crab until just below 10’ RA, then kick the rudder over. The more rudder input you apply, the faster the advancing wing will produce lift. If you don’t use aileron correction, a wing strike could occur.

Quick story on why “kick” is a bad word I don’t use.

Windy day going into Yakima in an empty C-5 which is a kite. 40* crosswind nearing the limits for conditions, IIRC about 28 knots of left crosswind component, 32.5* was the charted limit. Newish pilot flying, we had a discussion on crosswind techniques. He was ready and geared up. Nicely flown approach off the VOR, good weather except for winds. I’m in the right seat, watching, hands off the controls, feet resting on the pedals. He’s nicely stable and good air speed control going thru 50’, I call “20”, and my right pedal disappears under my foot. Oh boy! Nose swings thru the centerline, I grab my set of throttles and, say, “MY AIRPLANE”. As the thrust kicked in we were at the right hand edge of the runway and I remembering wondering if we’d touch. Off we went, thanks to GE and a light airplane.

Point being, just squeeze enough rudder to align the fuselage with the runway, think upwind aileron to hold the wings level, which will probably have set 2*-3* of bank into the wind. It’s poetry, not prose.

GF

You said it best.
 

awesome. I wish my LCA explained it that way.

E145 lands in a crab, slight down wing .
 

This one lands crabbed, then straightens nose.
Is this correct technique for E145? Not sure of the wind speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXHDSsSYSdU

If you look closely, the PF is decrabbing, as it touches down, wings level, in a diminishing crab angle. Could have decrabbed a bit more, but hard to say, not knowing the plane. Smoke comes off the mains nearly simultaneously, firm touch without the plane bouncing or rolling because of the decrabbing of the gear. Probably 20 knots, perhaps 25.

Can’t say what the Embraer manual says on crosswind techniques, but it looks reasonable.

CRJ-200 and crossiwnds.
 

Here is a 9000 hour CRJ-200 pilot talking about the high roll rate.
Probably something they should address in training?

Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing


CRJ200 no fan of crosswinds
By nugpot on Thursday, Apr 2nd 2015 12:53Z

I have about 9000 hours on those wonderful little jets. Crosswinds are a challenge due to a very strong yaw/roll couple (when kicking straight after crabbing in) plus a high roll-rate for a passenger aircraft due to the spoileron/aileron combination on a short wing. In gusty conditions, you can quickly overcorrect into a tip strike.



Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing

Any swept wing plane will have yaw-roll coupling, it’s a feature. The advancing wing is becoming “less swept” while the retreating wing is becoming “more swept”. Also, a crosswind becomes more normal to the wing on the upwind side and less on the downwind side. Picture yourself hovering over the plane and imagine what a left cross looks like compared to a direct headwind. The upwind wing has a flow nearly perpendicular to the leading edge while the downwind has the wind flowing nearly parallel to the leading edge. These two factors contribute to the yaw-roll coupling, but they are generic to all swept wing designs.

Can’t say about roll rate other than a deft touch and stay in sync with what the gust is doing. I tend to think many pilots are too aggressive in countering every gust and “row” at the ailerons. Fewer, but positive, roll inputs and give the plane time to react. One can throw loads of inputs, reverse them quickly and the plane can’t react that fast. I had an IP in -38s, LtCol Bucholz, he could throw the stick all around the cockpit so fast the plane barely moved—in formation, it did to show positive timely inputs were correct, not a flurry of pokes.

GF

Good stuff.
 

Thanks, GF. Good stuff.
I think they should do more crosswinds in the sim; gusts, if the sim is capable.

pp

Because the Global had a series of wingtip strikes, it was a sim “emphasis item”. It’s tricky and as you exceed 20 knots of cross; you sometimes have to a combination of crabbed (decrab to around 5* crab angle) and wing low within 3*-5* of bank and opposite rudder.

PM an email and I’ll send a Flight Safety Foundation article on the subject.

GF

When we say "kick" it out, we don't really mean kick. Smooth inputs and fly the wing while you're doing it.

If you get a sudden gust in the flare you may need a sudden roll input, but a small input should do it... or buy you time for deeper correction.

Funny thing about Global strikes, out of 13 or 14, only two involved crosswinds near the demonstrated crosswind component of 29 knots. Several involved winds of less than 10 knots. The “investigations” revealed very low speed at touchdown, hence high pitch angles (>10*, IIRC) and a little bit of ham-fisted roll inputs and/or high sink rate. With 35* of sweep, the tips get close to the pavement at high pitch angles.

GF

Great point about high pitch /wing clearance
 

This shows G V as example. at 5' pitch, wing tip clearance goes from 60 to 43 inches clearance.

And even more clearance when your nose down.
 

On one of my first CRJ-200 landings, I was a little off center line just before flare, but hesitant to use aileron that close to the runway. The LCA reminded me later that when pitched down 2.5 ' ( that you need in 200), your wingtips are even farther from runway. So get on the centerline BEFORE you start to flare.

Lots of great advice here. This is an important topic as we are getting a lot of RJ folks to the 747, and I see crosswind landing issues frequently on the line.

I am not a check airman so, I find myself having to try to explain to new people how to land the "big" jet, and I want to be a correct as possible. Unfortunately, we have had several incidents lately that did not end well.

A 747 will strike a pod at 6 degrees of bank, but that is really a lot of bank. You will feel very uncomfortable if you land with 6 degrees.

One problem I see frequently is that people stop flying the jet after touchdown. The 747 has a big tail, and you must use downwind rudder to prevent the airplane from weather-vaning. This is particularly true of the LCF which has a 7 foot taller SP tail. You must apply aileron as necessary. How much is necessary? What ever it takes, up to and including, full control input to keep the wings level.

You can land a 747 in a crab, but I have always done it like Galaxy Flyer described.

Aileron and center line discipline are your friends with the larger jets. Speed control is critical. If you get slow, GO AROUND!

Here’s a link to a FSF ALAR article on crosswinds.

https://flightsafety.org/files/alar_bn8-7-crosswind.pdf

GF

https://www.batraining.com/elearning...rses/crosswind

Free course on Global Express crosswind techniques. First 14 slides are GLEX specifics from the AFM, but after that it gets into information that's applicable to any aircraft using the wings level crab technique.

That’s the one we wrote! Vast improvement on the earlier one. Crosswind landings were a recurrent item plus lots of work in initial.

GF

Not enough focus on Crosswind/ gusts
 

Atlas,

If RJ pilots are not prepared, I think I know why. No focus on this key item. Here is one manual I found online...

The ***** requires traditional control inputs during a crosswind
landing. The recommended crosswind landing technique is to
combine crab and sideslip.
On final approach, a crab angle should be established with the wings
level in order to maintain the aircraft on the desired course. When
initiating the flare at 10-15 feet above the runway
surface, apply rudder to align the aircraft with the runway centerline
while simultaneously applying opposite aileron to correct for sideways
drift. After touchdown, maintain runway centerline with rudder
steering and continue to apply aileron input into the wind consistent
with aircraft speed and wind velocity.
Use caution when operating in gusty conditions. A wingtip strike could
occur if excessive (more than 8º roll) aileron correction is applied.

There is no mention of the fast roll rate of the CRJ-200, and keeping the wings flat. If you have 27 kts of wind, you will need a good deal of wing low, and may get near the limit.

Below is what I found in the ASA interview prep book.


As a simple explanation using the question from above, the pilot will wait until crossing the threshold to push the right rudder to align the nose with the runway center-line, while adding a small amount of left aileron to keep the wings level. Maintain this until touchdown. The large amount of inertia of this large airplane will keep the aircraft tracking down the runway centerline for the short amount of time until touchdown. If the pilot makes the rudder input too early, the airplane will start drifting prior to touchdown. If the pilot makes the rudder input too late, the airplane will touchdown in a crab. Both errors in timing will make for a rough touchdown.

I think the ASA explanation is better at preventing wing low landings.

CRJ-200 Wing tip strikes
 

2013: ASA: Incident: Atlantic Southeast CRJ2 at Charleston on Apr 5th 2013, wing tip strike on landing
2014: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Atlanta on Jul 16th 2014, wing tip strike on landing
2015: Air Wisconsin: Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing
2017: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Roanoke on Jan 22nd 2017, wing tip strike on landing

In my sim, only did 12 knots crosswind. No gusts. ( not sure if sim can do that.)

No mention of :

- fast roll rate of CRJ-200, and possibility to overcorrect in gusts.
- how much bank is needed with 0' crab, and max crosswind. ( what is your margin for error ? )
- Amount of crab ' that is acceptable on main gear to protect the wingtips.

No ground school on this topic. At least several wing tip strikes should have been reviewed and studied.

I have heard that we now have some extra landing training in the SIM for new hires. Atlas has always been a sink or swim type of outfit, and they got away with that because of where the pilots used to come from.

Those days have changed. I firmly believe that if a pilot has the aptitude and a good attitude, he can be trained. The question is how much money do you want to spend to train him? The military does it everyday.

We have pilots now who struggle to talk on the radios properly. They are not idiots, but clearly no one has taken the time to correct them in a constructive way and hold them accountable. But hey, the emperor wears no clothes...

Three out of four of those strikes had less than 10 knots of crosswind component. MHT was challenging. This is very believable—strikes are mostly about poor training in crosswind landings (sims can do gusts and strong crosswinds, but it’s still 1s and 0s in the box) and, to large extent, poor training during line operations where the real learning occurs. The elimination of pre-IOE “bounce drill” in the plane was a bad idea. Spent 3 hours doing T&Gs in the 727 for new F/Os at EAL. Pretty interesting as a new engineer, too.

Captains will flame me here, but line captains need to constructively criticize bad techniques and explain good techniques and let F/Os learn. Those that can’t or won’t are doing aviation a disservice.

GF

IOE is very different now.
 

GF,

Yes, I noticed how low the wind was on those. I was surprised by that.

When I did IOE in 2002, in a DHC-8, they made sure you could fly the airplane. We weren't supposed to be at the level of a 1 year FO.

When I did IOE in 2017, the one LCA said he would sign me off only if if he didn't have to say a word about anything. Of course he was going to comment, he would have done this, or that, even though the approach was fine. He had 12,000 hours in the aircraft. It seems now after IOE you need to fly as a 1 year FO. It seems like the Captain role is to no longer assist FO's.