Flight Visibility on non-precision approaches
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: 1559
If you're at minimums, your only concern is 'do I see the runway environment and can I descend from MDA?' If you have the approach lights, you can descend 100' below, and if you have the runway, come on down. That's not the time to be guessing what the visibility is. You needed the appropriate legal visibility to start the approach. To finish it, you need to be able to see the runway environment.
#14
Prime Minister/Moderator

Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
The 100' below mins is a common misconception since your typical CAT I has a DA which equates to 200' AGL... so 100' below that is the same as 100' AGL.
#15
Disinterested Third Party
Joined: Jun 2012
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One can continue to one hundred feet, but that wasn't really the point.
The point was that one does not need to have, or verify, approach weather minimums (ceiling or visibility) when approaching minimums. What's being reported isn't nearly as important as what's outside the window. One is looking outside, or half-in-half-out, depending on one's role for the approach, and at such time as one looks up and sees the required visual references (and acknowledges them, as one's SOP may dictate ("continue," "landing, etc), one isn't asking at that moment in time if the current, up-to-the-second weather is still reporting above minimums, because one is inside the FAF/GSIA and looking for visual references. Those references may be the runway, or simply pre-runway references that allow one to descend a little lower, until one acquires the runway (or must go around).
That was the point. The question regarded whether one must have legal reported weather minimums, when arriving at minimums, and the answer is that one has what one sees out the window, at that point. It was noted by some that one should have the charted (or approved; eg, OpSpec, etc) minimums, but this is not correct. Those were needed to begin the approach; arrival at MDA on a constant descent approach, or DH/DA, one isn't going to (and shouldn't) check weather to see if there are changes; one is looking for the necessary visual references (Except cat III procedures when one may not see the runway before touchdown). So long as the necessary minimums were reported in order to begin the final approach segment, that element of the approach has been satisfied. Upon arrival at minimums, what's seen out the window is the order of the day. What's required and the altitude to which we can go depends entirely upon the procedure, the nature of the approach, in some cases the aircraft, in all cases of certificate holders, the certificate holder's approvals and authorizations, and of course, also the pilot and his or her qualification (and currency).
The point was that one does not need to have, or verify, approach weather minimums (ceiling or visibility) when approaching minimums. What's being reported isn't nearly as important as what's outside the window. One is looking outside, or half-in-half-out, depending on one's role for the approach, and at such time as one looks up and sees the required visual references (and acknowledges them, as one's SOP may dictate ("continue," "landing, etc), one isn't asking at that moment in time if the current, up-to-the-second weather is still reporting above minimums, because one is inside the FAF/GSIA and looking for visual references. Those references may be the runway, or simply pre-runway references that allow one to descend a little lower, until one acquires the runway (or must go around).
That was the point. The question regarded whether one must have legal reported weather minimums, when arriving at minimums, and the answer is that one has what one sees out the window, at that point. It was noted by some that one should have the charted (or approved; eg, OpSpec, etc) minimums, but this is not correct. Those were needed to begin the approach; arrival at MDA on a constant descent approach, or DH/DA, one isn't going to (and shouldn't) check weather to see if there are changes; one is looking for the necessary visual references (Except cat III procedures when one may not see the runway before touchdown). So long as the necessary minimums were reported in order to begin the final approach segment, that element of the approach has been satisfied. Upon arrival at minimums, what's seen out the window is the order of the day. What's required and the altitude to which we can go depends entirely upon the procedure, the nature of the approach, in some cases the aircraft, in all cases of certificate holders, the certificate holder's approvals and authorizations, and of course, also the pilot and his or her qualification (and currency).
#16
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2008
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One can continue to one hundred feet, but that wasn't really the point.
The point was that one does not need to have, or verify, approach weather minimums (ceiling or visibility) when approaching minimums. What's being reported isn't nearly as important as what's outside the window. One is looking outside, or half-in-half-out, depending on one's role for the approach, and at such time as one looks up and sees the required visual references (and acknowledges them, as one's SOP may dictate ("continue," "landing, etc), one isn't asking at that moment in time if the current, up-to-the-second weather is still reporting above minimums, because one is inside the FAF/GSIA and looking for visual references. Those references may be the runway, or simply pre-runway references that allow one to descend a little lower, until one acquires the runway (or must go around).
That was the point. The question regarded whether one must have legal reported weather minimums, when arriving at minimums, and the answer is that one has what one sees out the window, at that point. It was noted by some that one should have the charted (or approved; eg, OpSpec, etc) minimums, but this is not correct. Those were needed to begin the approach; arrival at MDA on a constant descent approach, or DH/DA, one isn't going to (and shouldn't) check weather to see if there are changes; one is looking for the necessary visual references (Except cat III procedures when one may not see the runway before touchdown). So long as the necessary minimums were reported in order to begin the final approach segment, that element of the approach has been satisfied. Upon arrival at minimums, what's seen out the window is the order of the day. What's required and the altitude to which we can go depends entirely upon the procedure, the nature of the approach, in some cases the aircraft, in all cases of certificate holders, the certificate holder's approvals and authorizations, and of course, also the pilot and his or her qualification (and currency).
The point was that one does not need to have, or verify, approach weather minimums (ceiling or visibility) when approaching minimums. What's being reported isn't nearly as important as what's outside the window. One is looking outside, or half-in-half-out, depending on one's role for the approach, and at such time as one looks up and sees the required visual references (and acknowledges them, as one's SOP may dictate ("continue," "landing, etc), one isn't asking at that moment in time if the current, up-to-the-second weather is still reporting above minimums, because one is inside the FAF/GSIA and looking for visual references. Those references may be the runway, or simply pre-runway references that allow one to descend a little lower, until one acquires the runway (or must go around).
That was the point. The question regarded whether one must have legal reported weather minimums, when arriving at minimums, and the answer is that one has what one sees out the window, at that point. It was noted by some that one should have the charted (or approved; eg, OpSpec, etc) minimums, but this is not correct. Those were needed to begin the approach; arrival at MDA on a constant descent approach, or DH/DA, one isn't going to (and shouldn't) check weather to see if there are changes; one is looking for the necessary visual references (Except cat III procedures when one may not see the runway before touchdown). So long as the necessary minimums were reported in order to begin the final approach segment, that element of the approach has been satisfied. Upon arrival at minimums, what's seen out the window is the order of the day. What's required and the altitude to which we can go depends entirely upon the procedure, the nature of the approach, in some cases the aircraft, in all cases of certificate holders, the certificate holder's approvals and authorizations, and of course, also the pilot and his or her qualification (and currency).
#17
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2005
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Cat II & Cat III require the weather to remain at or above minimums throughout the approach. However, that’s not the flight crew’s job to determine. If ATC happens to provide an update to RVR while they’re inside the PFAF and that update is below the charted minima a missed approach is required.
On the Final Approach Segment (FAS), if the weather report indicates below-minimum conditions, the approach may continue to DA/DH or MDA. Upon reaching DA/DH or at MDA, and at any time before the missed approach point, the pilot may continue the approach below DA/DH or MDA if the following requirements are met.
Some countries have specific caveats to this. For example, in the UK, the approach may be flown regardless of the WX/RVR but may not descend below a 1000' AFE if the weather is below minimums. Conversely, the approach may continue if below 1000' and the weather degrades below the applicable minimum.
#18
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2008
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That's not accurate. Cat II/III approaches may continue if established on the FAS. From a previous post:
This is also explicit in AC 120-118 and OpSpec C060: C060 g. Operating Limitations. "(f) Once established on the FAS, all operations conducted using automatic rollout systems, or FP HUD rollout guidance, may continue if any RVR report decreases below the authorized minimums."
Some countries have specific caveats to this. For example, in the UK, the approach may be flown regardless of the WX/RVR but may not descend below a 1000' AFE if the weather is below minimums. Conversely, the approach may continue if below 1000' and the weather degrades below the applicable minimum.
This is also explicit in AC 120-118 and OpSpec C060: C060 g. Operating Limitations. "(f) Once established on the FAS, all operations conducted using automatic rollout systems, or FP HUD rollout guidance, may continue if any RVR report decreases below the authorized minimums."
Some countries have specific caveats to this. For example, in the UK, the approach may be flown regardless of the WX/RVR but may not descend below a 1000' AFE if the weather is below minimums. Conversely, the approach may continue if below 1000' and the weather degrades below the applicable minimum.
we are limited though on the 73 (and I guess the 717 as well) must do a missed on a cat iii if rvr reports below minimums even when established on the FAS.
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
ICAO (a United Nations Agency) Annex 6 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, Part 1 states in paragraph 4.4.1.2:
"An instrument approach shall not be continued below 300 m (1 000 ft) above the aerodrome elevation or into the final approach segment unless the reported visibility or controlling RVR* is at or above the aerodrome operating minima."
Refer to the country's specifics of operations Aeronautical Information Publication for differences in Approach Bans.
"An instrument approach shall not be continued below 300 m (1 000 ft) above the aerodrome elevation or into the final approach segment unless the reported visibility or controlling RVR* is at or above the aerodrome operating minima."
Refer to the country's specifics of operations Aeronautical Information Publication for differences in Approach Bans.
#20
Disinterested Third Party
Joined: Jun 2012
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ICAO (a United Nations Agency) Annex 6 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, Part 1 states in paragraph 4.4.1.2:
"An instrument approach shall not be continued below 300 m (1 000 ft) above the aerodrome elevation or into the final approach segment unless the reported visibility or controlling RVR* is at or above the aerodrome operating minima."
Refer to the country's specifics of operations Aeronautical Information Publication for differences in Approach Bans.
"An instrument approach shall not be continued below 300 m (1 000 ft) above the aerodrome elevation or into the final approach segment unless the reported visibility or controlling RVR* is at or above the aerodrome operating minima."
Refer to the country's specifics of operations Aeronautical Information Publication for differences in Approach Bans.
4.4.1.3 If, after entering the final approach segment or after descending below 300 m (1 000 ft) above the aerodrome elevation, the reported visibility or controlling RVR falls below the specified minimum, the approach may be continued to DA/H or MDA/H. In any case, an aeroplane shall not continue its approach-to-land at any aerodrome beyond a point at which the limits of the operating minima specified for that aerodrome would be infringed.
Note.— Controlling RVR means the reported values of one or more RVR reporting locations (touchdown, mid-point and stop-end) used to determine whether operating minima are or are not met. Where RVR is used, the controlling RVR is the touchdown RVR, unless otherwise specified by State criteria.
Note.— Controlling RVR means the reported values of one or more RVR reporting locations (touchdown, mid-point and stop-end) used to determine whether operating minima are or are not met. Where RVR is used, the controlling RVR is the touchdown RVR, unless otherwise specified by State criteria.
The crucial element at arrival at minimums continues to be not if meteorological reported minimums are at or above charted minimums, but whether one has the necessary references to continue the procedure below minimums; it comes down to whether one can see the approach or runway lights to either continue, or land.
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