Clue32

I've been flying around the busy European airspace (Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Venice, Brussels, Lisbon etc) for four years now and your instructor (or rather his culture) is nuts. There are times when you have to engage the AP, especially while briefing the approach and landing and completing checklist items. On departure all the tough work should be accomplished on the ground and all you've got to do is fly the SID and listen up for the calls.

I typically hand fly to altitude (or some high intermediate level off that I think ATC will stick me at for more than two or three minutes) then give it over to George. On landing, once the approach is briefed and I'm close in to the airport (and not shooting an approach down to minimus) I'll take over around 30 miles before landing or after coming through FL06-100. I prefer hand flying. 1 it is fun, 2 the autopilot can (and has failed), 3 at times it is quicker and less complicated to make the turning descents in the terminal area manually.

If the Captains don't trust the FO's to fly, and call for checklist items, and monitor the instruments, and listen to the radio (you know, all that basic flying stuff that you do by yourself while training in a 172) then I would suspect that there is a deficiency in the training of Lufthansa Cityline pilots.

--Last paragraph deleted due to previous inability to read--

FlyerJosh

Actually we do. They are called Line Check Airmen and IOE Instructors. Personally, I think that any good Captain is a "Training Captain" in that they mentor those that they fly with and are always learning themselves.

Maxspeed

How else will I drink my coffee and read the paper if the AP is off??

Clue32

My mistake. I thought he was talking about a senior FO's training to be captains. I read something somewhere else about international flying and make up of flight crews that must have confused me... probably from the start.

I'm aware of check airmen and IOE instructors.

I totally agree about every captain / PIC being a training captain. When I was a PIC in my last company I did everything I could to teach, train, and mentor the Pilots I flew with because that is what the more senior PIC's did for me when I was new.

If you adopt all the good/smart/safe things you see your CA's or FO's doing you'll wind up a top notch aviator, and the young kid sitting next to you will hopefully learn them too.

That being said, it is up to the PIC's of this world not to pass on bad habits or blur the standards with questionable short-cuts.

Jakob

Hey! I just got back from Lisbon (By the way - pretty cool approach over the city and some interesting crosswinds made the flights fun! ) and read all your new replys just now! Thanks for the interesting statements. They are all very convincing and I believe I understand better now.

Especially Clue32, you have been very convinving and I appreceate your effort! You sound like you've been doing some VERY interesting flying. May I ask what you flew and for whom? I would assume Uncle Sam...

de727ups, yeah, as far as I have been told visual approaches are forbidden at most German airports and at least VERY uncommon even at the smaller ones. And yes, I guess Lufthansa encourages their pilots to use automation a lot. I was just thinking about the differences to the USA.

Thanks again for your replys! Very interesting and I'd love to read and learn more. I'm looking forward to moving back home to the States for my career - your mentality and professionalism is just impressing!

Best regards
Jakob

EDIT: Sorry Clue32, I just looked at your profile. Obviously you did fly in Europe for the military! Would you mind to share any further stories? Your posts seemed awesome and got me interested!

Clue32

Jakob, short reply to avoid hijacking this thread, send me a PM if you have more specific questions.

Army aviator, flew VIP and General Support out of Stuttgart in C-12U (B200) and C-12J (B1900C). Mostly to Bosnia and Kosovo from Germany or Italy, but during my first three year tour I landed in 21 different countries as far east as Tiblisi Georgia, north as Oslo, South as Ali Al Salam Kuwait, and west as the Azores. I'm now flying an RC-12K out of Wiesbaden AAF and it is no where near as fun. Photos of all aircraft are on airliners.net if you are curious.

IFR in Europe is very easy once you get an ear for the different accents and become familiar with procedures at airfields you go in and out of regularly. In less busy sectors it is fairly easy to get "Direct to XYZ" for short cuts, but usually never further than the international border. Only serious problem I've had over here is Podgoriza Montenegro Radar not wanting to let us deviate around an area of thunderstorms and they flew us into the middle of a horseshoe shaped ring of thunderstorms. We worked it out, kept the plane out of the weather, and they eventually let us fly up the Adriatic Sea rather that heading back towards Sarajevo like our flight plan was filed for. Frankfurt is very busy and they want to cancel us army pilots out and put us visual to Wiesbaden as soon as possible. I went into FRA once with my CP's mic button sticking and hot micing on the arrival freq during the evening rush. Had an engine failure over the north sea and made an emergency landing into Koln. I recommend flying over the alps and dropping down to FL180 when it is clear outside, great view. And if Dutch Mil F-16's intercept you and ask to be cleared in close, they mean Blue Angel close.

Happy flying!

blastoff

I may have missed it, but I think the poster was hinting at technical reasons, not regulatory ones (RVSM) you need autopilot near the tropopause.

The obvious one is WWII planes you speak of were straight wing, whereas modern jets are swept-wing, which are extremely vulnerable to dutch roll at high speed/high alt when flown by hand. Autopilot usually incorperates yaw damper, which eliminates or greatly reduces dutch roll with automatic rudder inputs.

Iflyfr8

I've only been able to find an appendix G of Part 91-RVSM on the FAA website, it does not speak of the use of an autopilot in RVSM airspace, only that it is required to have one and that it needs to be operational.

Could you please point me in the right direction?

Thank you!

Iflyfr8

I'm sorry about above post. I found the appendix 4.

The way I read and understand this is that is a guide for establishing operating procedures (among many, many, many other things) for Companies, operators, airlines to operate in RVSM airspace. They are not binding by them selves. Maybe for a part 91 operator!

However, if you work for an operator under 135 or 121 you are bound by what your training program and operation specifications says. Those are in them selves reviewed by your company's POI and approved.

My company can not dispatch an aircraft into RVSM airspace without an operational and functional autopilot. The use of an autopilot is recommended, but not required.

So if you fell like it you can climb, cruise and descend back through FL290 without the use of an autopilot.

Personally I like to use "George" every now and then to make sure it actually works and give my self and my co-pilot a break.

SamFoxpilot

Going back to the original question real quick: Yes, today's RVSM airspace does mandate A/P use from 290-410. You don't have that restriction above FL410, but flying that high w no A/P is hard work for most airframes.

Back during DESERT STORM I flew a C-141 back from Germany w/no auto-pilot @ FL370. It was my CP's leg, and once we reached level-off, he could not maintain altitude and would get himself into a gradually increasing pitch oscillations +/- 500' by over-correcting. After a couple of more tries on his part, I had to take the jet. I got it trimmed out, but it took more work than it would have flying down at 10K.

My lesson learned: Yea, I was able to hand fly a heavy jet up high, but I should've asked for more fuel so I could go a bit lower to help make the jet a bit easier to handle.