Why autopilot above 24000?
10-10-2007, 01:09 PM
#21
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
In my opinion, there's a reason for automation. It makes life simpler, and I'll readily agree that in most circumstances, it does a better job than any human can.
However, pilots also need to understand that there is a need to know when to use it and when not to. I've seen examples (either in training or in real life) where flight crews have gotten into serious trouble (including an accident) when they rely too heavily on a computer/autopilot/FMS that isn't getting the job done (including when they know it isn't doing the job right).
As a captain, I brief my expectations regarding the use of automation, particularly when operating in and out of high density or unfamiliar airports. I personally have no problem with a crew member hand-flying (in any conditions where the regs allow), provided that it doesn't cause undue burden on the other crewmembers. I would also expect that when operating in conditions where levels of stress and workload are increased, that automation will be used. (Such as in bad weather or during emergencies/abnormal operations or when flying complex arrivals/departures).
However, pilots also need to understand that there is a need to know when to use it and when not to. I've seen examples (either in training or in real life) where flight crews have gotten into serious trouble (including an accident) when they rely too heavily on a computer/autopilot/FMS that isn't getting the job done (including when they know it isn't doing the job right).
As a captain, I brief my expectations regarding the use of automation, particularly when operating in and out of high density or unfamiliar airports. I personally have no problem with a crew member hand-flying (in any conditions where the regs allow), provided that it doesn't cause undue burden on the other crewmembers. I would also expect that when operating in conditions where levels of stress and workload are increased, that automation will be used. (Such as in bad weather or during emergencies/abnormal operations or when flying complex arrivals/departures).
10-10-2007, 01:47 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 652
Originally Posted by Jakob
It's very interesting reading the discussion on hand flying on here.
I just talked to an instructor in my glider-club who flies for Lufthansa CityLine as a captain and is also a chief-pilot (I think) on the Canadair Fleet - definatly at least a training captain. I told him that I had spoken to pilots from the US and read on here that they would usually hand fly up until at least 10,000 feet or more. He immedeatly said that he as a captain would not allow a F/O to do so! He said, on rare occasions, OK, but not as a habbit... He said that company procedures where Autopilot ON at 600feet. I asked him why and asked if the hand flying skills didn't get lost. He said that you needed your absolute concentration for radio calls, freq. changes, traffic and monitoring the instruments. He said the "pilot not flying" would have WAY too much work if the PF hand flew the aircraft. Hand flying skills were trained on rare occasions that the do an entire flight "raw data" with a training captain for example.
I have to say, I don't really think he was right - especially how harsch he was! He said that every pilot saying he would always hand fly up to 10,000feet was an idiot... (sorry guys, just quoting! Not my opinion anyway...
) But what can I know - I mean, he is a highly experienced airline captain...
What are your thoughts? Would you say this is just a different mentality in Europe? He said, especially around places like Chicago you would have to look out for traffic and couldn't possibly be hand flying...
Whatever, I'd like to do it like you guys
- one of the reasons I'm moving back to the States after school...
Best regards,
Jakob
I just talked to an instructor in my glider-club who flies for Lufthansa CityLine as a captain and is also a chief-pilot (I think) on the Canadair Fleet - definatly at least a training captain. I told him that I had spoken to pilots from the US and read on here that they would usually hand fly up until at least 10,000 feet or more. He immedeatly said that he as a captain would not allow a F/O to do so! He said, on rare occasions, OK, but not as a habbit... He said that company procedures where Autopilot ON at 600feet. I asked him why and asked if the hand flying skills didn't get lost. He said that you needed your absolute concentration for radio calls, freq. changes, traffic and monitoring the instruments. He said the "pilot not flying" would have WAY too much work if the PF hand flew the aircraft. Hand flying skills were trained on rare occasions that the do an entire flight "raw data" with a training captain for example.
I have to say, I don't really think he was right - especially how harsch he was! He said that every pilot saying he would always hand fly up to 10,000feet was an idiot... (sorry guys, just quoting! Not my opinion anyway...
) But what can I know - I mean, he is a highly experienced airline captain...What are your thoughts? Would you say this is just a different mentality in Europe? He said, especially around places like Chicago you would have to look out for traffic and couldn't possibly be hand flying...
Whatever, I'd like to do it like you guys
- one of the reasons I'm moving back to the States after school...Best regards,
Jakob
I can just hear the guys who don't even have autopilots laughing.
10-11-2007, 11:10 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 1,105
Honestly it is a pain in the ass when you get some Joe Flyer that thinks he is impressing you with his hand flying skills in a heavy work load environment. Leaving ATL, ORD, DFW these places get hairy enough sometimes for the pilot not flying that when you now have to manage the bugs for the "Hand Flyer" calls get missed or confused adding to the work load. Frankly, turn it on and its a much easier job. Have a little consideration for the non flying pilot and go rent a Cessna if you want to impress yourself. my $.02
10-21-2007, 08:20 PM
#24
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by Airbum
I don't ALWAYS hand fly to 10,000-25,000 but do it most of the time. I also hand fly below 10,000 ft on the arrivals routinely. My companies policy is the Captain determines the level of automation to be used
I can just hear the guys who don't even have autopilots laughing.
I can just hear the guys who don't even have autopilots laughing.
Originally Posted by STILL GROUNDED
Honestly it is a pain in the ass when you get some Joe Flyer that thinks he is impressing you with his hand flying skills in a heavy work load environment. Leaving ATL, ORD, DFW these places get hairy enough sometimes for the pilot not flying that when you now have to manage the bugs for the "Hand Flyer" calls get missed or confused adding to the work load. Frankly, turn it on and its a much easier job. Have a little consideration for the non flying pilot and go rent a Cessna if you want to impress yourself. my $.02
THere are a whole lot of us who routinely fly single pilot (with and without an autopilot) into all those busy places. I DO agree that proper use of automation is a GREAT thing. But I have seen many more pilots lose the ability to hand fly than those who lose the ability to command George. (And before I hear the "everything happens faster in a jet" argument, many of us "dinks" can keep up pretty well below 10,000)
10-21-2007, 09:28 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: NU Guy
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
Yep
Scary thought. Just do me a favor and don't go joy riding a 172 without someone to handle the radios for you.
THere are a whole lot of us who routinely fly single pilot (with and without an autopilot) into all those busy places. I DO agree that proper use of automation is a GREAT thing. But I have seen many more pilots lose the ability to hand fly than those who lose the ability to command George. (And before I hear the "everything happens faster in a jet" argument, many of us "dinks" can keep up pretty well below 10,000)
Scary thought. Just do me a favor and don't go joy riding a 172 without someone to handle the radios for you.
THere are a whole lot of us who routinely fly single pilot (with and without an autopilot) into all those busy places. I DO agree that proper use of automation is a GREAT thing. But I have seen many more pilots lose the ability to hand fly than those who lose the ability to command George. (And before I hear the "everything happens faster in a jet" argument, many of us "dinks" can keep up pretty well below 10,000)
Last edited by Ski Patrol; 10-21-2007 at 09:34 PM.
10-21-2007, 11:48 PM
#26
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by Ski Patrol
Are you serious? Maintaining skills at an outstation is one thing JFK, ORD etc. is much different. Give the NFP a break so he can enjoy the view outside instead of babysitting the super pilot. I do agree with your other above post. Oft times turning george off is the only way to go as it's simply to slow to react.
Oh, and while I was stationed at an outstation, I fly into those busy places.... with an autopilot that flies to private pilot standards.
Last edited by FlyJSH; 10-21-2007 at 11:56 PM.
10-23-2007, 09:52 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 664
I asked my dad if he hand-flys at all (Capt 75/76 at USAIR) and he said most times up to 10,000 feet he does hand fly and performs basic turns and such to see if the airplane is handling normally and no malfunctions/abnormalities in the flight controls....then usually autopilot for cruise and hands flys the landing. Interesting point he brought up that you could miss if you turned on the autopilot right after rotation!
10-23-2007, 10:53 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
Jakob, one thing about Europe is they have these very strict noise abatement departures. I used to do them out of Cologne. It's easier to fly them with the automation and, I believe I read something a while back that the company wants them flown using the automation.
If you were in the habit of doing that day in, day out, I can see where a guy would come to think "that's just how airliners should be flown".
I remember that Germany doesn't allow visual approaches, either.
If you were in the habit of doing that day in, day out, I can see where a guy would come to think "that's just how airliners should be flown".
I remember that Germany doesn't allow visual approaches, either.
10-23-2007, 12:03 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 348
When it's easier to move bugs and spin knobs than it is to fly the airplane, I let george fly. When it's harder to tell george what to do than to just do it myself, I do it.
Seems to me to be the only way that makes sense.
Seems to me to be the only way that makes sense.
10-23-2007, 05:21 PM
#30
CA
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: I am the Captain now...
Posts: 1,006
Originally Posted by plasticpi
When it's easier to move bugs and spin knobs than it is to fly the airplane, I let george fly. When it's harder to tell george what to do than to just do it myself, I do it.
Seems to me to be the only way that makes sense.
Seems to me to be the only way that makes sense.
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