Unmanned airliners
11-23-2009, 08:29 PM
#31
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
Skyhigh, I don't know your personal situation, nor do I really care to be honest. But I find your remarks, especially for someone who is a monitor of an "airline pilot" forum, offensive if not down right degrading to the profession. Yes, I said profession.
Your comment that modern airliners don't need well experienced pilots anymore is reckless and ignorant. That is exactly the problem we have in this industry today. We have a few companies who allowed inexperienced people into the profession. And as such, we see this lack of experience show up when things don't go as planned.
If anything, I think the modern airliners are harder in that they allow you to become very complacent and ignorant all the while "making it look easy." But when something goes wrong, they expose your flaws.
Pilots still need to do math. They still need to hand fly. They still need to know how to enter holding. They still need to know the myriad of FARs and rules. They still need to be damn near experts in meteorology. They still need leadership skills in order to lead a crew and 150 passengers through a stressful emergecy or any other run-of-the-mill day-to-day situation that is an airline.
So please, cut with the "any idiot can fly" crap because they can't.
Your comment that modern airliners don't need well experienced pilots anymore is reckless and ignorant. That is exactly the problem we have in this industry today. We have a few companies who allowed inexperienced people into the profession. And as such, we see this lack of experience show up when things don't go as planned.
If anything, I think the modern airliners are harder in that they allow you to become very complacent and ignorant all the while "making it look easy." But when something goes wrong, they expose your flaws.
Pilots still need to do math. They still need to hand fly. They still need to know how to enter holding. They still need to know the myriad of FARs and rules. They still need to be damn near experts in meteorology. They still need leadership skills in order to lead a crew and 150 passengers through a stressful emergecy or any other run-of-the-mill day-to-day situation that is an airline.
So please, cut with the "any idiot can fly" crap because they can't.
He evidently got out of flying professionally and has since tried to justify his decision to quit.. A quick search of his posts would show this to be the case.
11-23-2009, 09:21 PM
#32
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Not anyone
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
Skyhigh, I don't know your personal situation, nor do I really care to be honest. But I find your remarks, especially for someone who is a monitor of an "airline pilot" forum, offensive if not down right degrading to the profession. Yes, I said profession.
Your comment that modern airliners don't need well experienced pilots anymore is reckless and ignorant. That is exactly the problem we have in this industry today. We have a few companies who allowed inexperienced people into the profession. And as such, we see this lack of experience show up when things don't go as planned.
If anything, I think the modern airliners are harder in that they allow you to become very complacent and ignorant all the while "making it look easy." But when something goes wrong, they expose your flaws.
Pilots still need to do math. They still need to hand fly. They still need to know how to enter holding. They still need to know the myriad of FARs and rules. They still need to be damn near experts in meteorology. They still need leadership skills in order to lead a crew and 150 passengers through a stressful emergecy or any other run-of-the-mill day-to-day situation that is an airline.
So please, cut with the "any idiot can fly" crap because they can't.
Your comment that modern airliners don't need well experienced pilots anymore is reckless and ignorant. That is exactly the problem we have in this industry today. We have a few companies who allowed inexperienced people into the profession. And as such, we see this lack of experience show up when things don't go as planned.
If anything, I think the modern airliners are harder in that they allow you to become very complacent and ignorant all the while "making it look easy." But when something goes wrong, they expose your flaws.
Pilots still need to do math. They still need to hand fly. They still need to know how to enter holding. They still need to know the myriad of FARs and rules. They still need to be damn near experts in meteorology. They still need leadership skills in order to lead a crew and 150 passengers through a stressful emergecy or any other run-of-the-mill day-to-day situation that is an airline.
So please, cut with the "any idiot can fly" crap because they can't.
In 10 minutes a 13 year old could be taught how to use the flight computer to enter a hold. Anyone with basic map skills will be able to find their position by looking at the little plane as it moves across the screen. Granted, to be completely accurate, not just anyone can jump into an airliner and fly. There are also people who can never figure out how to drive a car too. My point is that it is does not require a lifetime of study and experience building anymore.
A lot of what the airlines paid for in the past is now done by computer. We can pat ourselves on the back as much as we like but the guys who crossed the nation in DC-3's or the Atlantic in DC-6's earned their money. Why would an airline pay when they can hire 300 hour wonders who will do the job for free anyway? Where is the value in our job skills? Gone....
I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings but to make a point. What kind of a future do we have? Once the unions are completely gone and the free market has a complete choke hold on the airlines who is going to be able to pay much of anything? Why would they pay anything?
Skyhigh
11-23-2009, 09:35 PM
#33
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Humans safer?
Originally Posted by DeadHead
Human Progress has always been littered with people who become so entangled with whether they CAN do something while not stoping to think about whether they SHOULD do something.
Perhaps the technology does exist to make a "meatsack" in the cockpit a thing of the past, but is it cost effective, safer, and more reliable? Maybe one day it will be, maybe one day it won't.
So today we'll replace airline pilots, tomorrow we'll replace architects, and the day after that we'll replace surgeons. Let's continue to allow our technology to replace and improve on human ability so that one day there will no longer be the need for careered professionals. Schools and colleges will be a thing of the past since our technological advancements will take care of all our desires and needs.
I'm speaking out of sarcastic context to illustrate my point, machines will NEVER be able to make decisions. Whether your flying a DC-3 with a crew of 4 in 1950, or setting off on a Trans-Atlantic Europe flight in a state-of-the-art B-777, the skills of prudent judgment, decision making, and comprehensive planning are all human abilities.
Perhaps the technology does exist to make a "meatsack" in the cockpit a thing of the past, but is it cost effective, safer, and more reliable? Maybe one day it will be, maybe one day it won't.
So today we'll replace airline pilots, tomorrow we'll replace architects, and the day after that we'll replace surgeons. Let's continue to allow our technology to replace and improve on human ability so that one day there will no longer be the need for careered professionals. Schools and colleges will be a thing of the past since our technological advancements will take care of all our desires and needs.
I'm speaking out of sarcastic context to illustrate my point, machines will NEVER be able to make decisions. Whether your flying a DC-3 with a crew of 4 in 1950, or setting off on a Trans-Atlantic Europe flight in a state-of-the-art B-777, the skills of prudent judgment, decision making, and comprehensive planning are all human abilities.
Pilots even are becoming like computers. Standardization, memorized flows and procedures have turned pilots into organic computers. We are trained to regurgitate reactions and to follow checklists. Mindlessly we go through the same rote memorized routine over and over again. If something goes wrong there is a different set of procedures or decision trees to follow. If they run of the script then call maintenance control, ATC or dispatch.
The human is still in there but as time goes by the pilot is getting minimized. The people who are really making the decisions are the ones who are writing the procedures, designing checklists and eventually will be the ones making the in flight decisions from a command center on the ground.
Skyhigh
11-23-2009, 09:53 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,096
SkyHigh:
I agree with you in the fact that YES 300 hours pilots can be taught to do that stuff. Well guess what, 300 hour pilots can fly fighters, bombers, tankers, and recon aircraft -- the military does this every day. But there is an associated risk associated and as such, for civilian operations, isn't the norm. During hiring sprees, yet it happens. Additionally, Mathew Broderick showed that even monkeys can fly.
I will argue that those 300 hour wonders, whether military or civil, ARE apprentices. Besides that, you are missing the point.
Pilots today have lots of automation. However, the manual skills must still be mastered and demostrated. In the past year, I've had to fly (not all at one time) flights with no autopilot, no autothrottles, no navigational display (on my side), no ACARs (OMG .. I have to get freakin ATIS myself???), no flight directors, no VNAV, etc. My point, during those flights I still had to revert back to regular hand flying, radio usage, and navaid tuning/radial use.
And in the end, pilots weren't and aren't paid for our "flying skills". We are paid for our responsibility, judgement, knowledge, and leadership.
If your arguement were to hold water and be true, the DC-3 pilots would make more money than the A380 pilots. But something tells me that isn't the case.
I get it, you hate the industry for some ills that it brought to you. But you don't have to help tear the industry down now that you got burned. There are plenty of individuals, both large and regional carriers, who have excellent careers and love their jobs. I'm sorry you got into this industry expecting some ridiculous pay off. But please, don't cheapen my job because you think it is a bunch of video games that 13 year olds can do. That is like comparing being a surgeon to the game Operation.
I agree with you in the fact that YES 300 hours pilots can be taught to do that stuff. Well guess what, 300 hour pilots can fly fighters, bombers, tankers, and recon aircraft -- the military does this every day. But there is an associated risk associated and as such, for civilian operations, isn't the norm. During hiring sprees, yet it happens. Additionally, Mathew Broderick showed that even monkeys can fly.
I will argue that those 300 hour wonders, whether military or civil, ARE apprentices. Besides that, you are missing the point.
Pilots today have lots of automation. However, the manual skills must still be mastered and demostrated. In the past year, I've had to fly (not all at one time) flights with no autopilot, no autothrottles, no navigational display (on my side), no ACARs (OMG .. I have to get freakin ATIS myself???), no flight directors, no VNAV, etc. My point, during those flights I still had to revert back to regular hand flying, radio usage, and navaid tuning/radial use.
And in the end, pilots weren't and aren't paid for our "flying skills". We are paid for our responsibility, judgement, knowledge, and leadership.
If your arguement were to hold water and be true, the DC-3 pilots would make more money than the A380 pilots. But something tells me that isn't the case.
I get it, you hate the industry for some ills that it brought to you. But you don't have to help tear the industry down now that you got burned. There are plenty of individuals, both large and regional carriers, who have excellent careers and love their jobs. I'm sorry you got into this industry expecting some ridiculous pay off. But please, don't cheapen my job because you think it is a bunch of video games that 13 year olds can do. That is like comparing being a surgeon to the game Operation.
11-24-2009, 03:16 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Humans have their place however as time goes on technology takes over more and more of what the pilots use to do. As a result the airlines have gotten safer. The more we take the pilot out of the equation the safer we get.
Pilots even are becoming like computers. Standardization, memorized flows and procedures have turned pilots into organic computers. We are trained to regurgitate reactions and to follow checklists. Mindlessly we go through the same rote memorized routine over and over again. If something goes wrong there is a different set of procedures or decision trees to follow. If they run of the script then call maintenance control, ATC or dispatch.
The human is still in there but as time goes by the pilot is getting minimized. The people who are really making the decisions are the ones who are writing the procedures, designing checklists and eventually will be the ones making the in flight decisions from a command center on the ground.
Skyhigh
Pilots even are becoming like computers. Standardization, memorized flows and procedures have turned pilots into organic computers. We are trained to regurgitate reactions and to follow checklists. Mindlessly we go through the same rote memorized routine over and over again. If something goes wrong there is a different set of procedures or decision trees to follow. If they run of the script then call maintenance control, ATC or dispatch.
The human is still in there but as time goes by the pilot is getting minimized. The people who are really making the decisions are the ones who are writing the procedures, designing checklists and eventually will be the ones making the in flight decisions from a command center on the ground.
Skyhigh
I'm just curious about where your talking points are coming from. If you are saying that you are a well-informed media expert, then I think we can leave the discussion.
Personally I just find hard to believe any pilot would speak so lightly about his or her trade.
What is your basis on using the argument that with technology advancements our overall safety improves?
If your theory holds any accuracy, then how come the same formula is not true for vehicular accidents?
11-24-2009, 06:33 AM
#36
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
In 10 minutes a 13 year old could be taught how to use the flight computer to enter a hold. Anyone with basic map skills will be able to find their position by looking at the little plane as it moves across the screen. Granted, to be completely accurate, not just anyone can jump into an airliner and fly. There are also people who can never figure out how to drive a car too. My point is that it is does not require a lifetime of study and experience building anymore.
As long as everything is going smoothly there is a small grain of truth to this. But when something unexpected happens, an experienced professional is nice to have on hand...
Google Colgan 3407 and US Airways 1549...compare what we know about the pilot performance and final outcome.
11-24-2009, 07:22 AM
#37
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Conclusion
The point I am trying to make is that whatever it takes to be a pilot there are few restrictions left to entering the profession. Technology is making it so that traditional pilot skills and natural ability has been replaced by automation. Human resources has made it so that even pilots with coke bottle thick glasses can get hired. Tall or short fat or skinny you will be considered for a job.
In addition our society has evolved to the point where people will confidently pursue a frivolous profession the the name of personal satisfaction. People who live near the edge would never consider an endeavor that costs so much to get into and offer's so little in compensation. Aviation has become an all consuming pursuit similar to that of music and art majors. Competition is fierce and there are lines ten deep of pilots who are willing to do the job for less.
There is little that remains to suggest that pilots will be worth anything in the future. Pilots today are paid by what they will do and not for what they can do. It is sad. I can not continue to confidently invest myself or my families future into something that does not have a secure or valued future. Eventually airliners will be controlled from the ground and academy trained pilots with little overall experience will sit there arms folded for hour upon hour under the watchful eye of the camera. Hand flying will be a rare emergency procedure.
When I look to the future I do not have much confidence for professional pilots. I do not want to be poor. I do not want to spend my life on the road. I do not want to be laid off in my 50's and forced to go back to the regionals to start over at 18K because there is nowhere else to go.
Skyhigh
In addition our society has evolved to the point where people will confidently pursue a frivolous profession the the name of personal satisfaction. People who live near the edge would never consider an endeavor that costs so much to get into and offer's so little in compensation. Aviation has become an all consuming pursuit similar to that of music and art majors. Competition is fierce and there are lines ten deep of pilots who are willing to do the job for less.
There is little that remains to suggest that pilots will be worth anything in the future. Pilots today are paid by what they will do and not for what they can do. It is sad. I can not continue to confidently invest myself or my families future into something that does not have a secure or valued future. Eventually airliners will be controlled from the ground and academy trained pilots with little overall experience will sit there arms folded for hour upon hour under the watchful eye of the camera. Hand flying will be a rare emergency procedure.
When I look to the future I do not have much confidence for professional pilots. I do not want to be poor. I do not want to spend my life on the road. I do not want to be laid off in my 50's and forced to go back to the regionals to start over at 18K because there is nowhere else to go.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 11-24-2009 at 07:49 AM.
11-24-2009, 07:32 AM
#39
Self Employed.
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Expereince
Originally Posted by rickair7777
As long as everything is going smoothly there is a small grain of truth to this. But when something unexpected happens, an experienced professional is nice to have on hand...
Google Colgan 3407 and US Airways 1549...compare what we know about the pilot performance and final outcome.
Google Colgan 3407 and US Airways 1549...compare what we know about the pilot performance and final outcome.
A pilot will never be faulted for following procedures. In place of experience the ability to rote memorize procedures and to stick to the prescribed path will keep a pilot out of trouble. They might still crash the plane one day but they will pass every check ride and proficiency check. Overall however the inexperienced automaton will have a better safety record then the complacent maverick.
Pilots get into trouble when they leave the path. I am not completely briefed on the accident particulars of Colgan 3407 and US Airways 1549 but it seems to me that other factors were involved besides inexperience. I do not think that an accident has ever been blamed on inexperienced pilots, however there have been plenty blamed on over confident, arrogant and complacent experienced pilots.
Even Sully agrees that there are fewer truly experienced pilots in the sky anymore.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 11-24-2009 at 07:45 AM.
11-24-2009, 07:44 AM
#40
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
My background
Originally Posted by DeadHead
Again, Skyhigh, how are you coming to these conclusions? What kind of background were you coming from? What kind of flying have you done?
I'm just curious about where your talking points are coming from. If you are saying that you are a well-informed media expert, then I think we can leave the discussion.
Personally I just find hard to believe any pilot would speak so lightly about his or her trade.
What is your basis on using the argument that with technology advancements our overall safety improves?
If your theory holds any accuracy, then how come the same formula is not true for vehicular accidents?
I'm just curious about where your talking points are coming from. If you are saying that you are a well-informed media expert, then I think we can leave the discussion.
Personally I just find hard to believe any pilot would speak so lightly about his or her trade.
What is your basis on using the argument that with technology advancements our overall safety improves?
If your theory holds any accuracy, then how come the same formula is not true for vehicular accidents?
Look around even on this web site there are lots of professional pilots who share the same views as I. I arrived at my opinions after more than two decades of studying aviation.
In regards to your question about auto safety I do not understand what you are getting at. Cars are safer due to advancements in technology.
Skyhigh
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